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This local story is now national news; neighborhood associations are ridiculous
Topic Started: Dec 3 2009, 10:34 AM (1,253 Views)
Copper
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Shortstop
Mark
Dec 3 2009, 11:39 AM
JBryan
Dec 3 2009, 11:30 AM
That is exactly why I refused to even look at any house encumbered by a HOA.
+1

City "regulations", "inspections" and "codes" are bad enough.

Yes, exactly.

When I bought my house 24 years ago "No HOA" was near the top of my list.

And around here it is almost impossible to find a “No HOA” neighborhood.

My old neighborhood has one and it was a nightmare for a lot of people. They were very active and unbelievably nit-picky. They would walk the neighborhood looking for violations as simple as a 5x5 brick patio by someone's backdoor.

I figure that the local and state government has enough restrictions to "protect" us.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
Dec 3 2009, 11:47 AM
The 89th Key
Dec 3 2009, 11:42 AM
Seriously though...yes Aqua I'm serious. I absolutely think the condo association has the right and responsibility to somewhat limit what can be displayed from balconies, etc. However I think one thing that should always be allowed is the flying of the American flag.
Well the condo association can do what it wants of course. I wouldn't likely live in a place that had too many of those restrictions but people are free to choose what they want.

But it sounded like you were against any other kinds of flags being flown except American. I don't see the point of that since if you want to display a flag from another country, there's already a protocol in place for that sort of thing. I don't see why any further control would be needed.
This is assuming folks would follow the proper etiquette of flag use. Given the number of American flag shirts I see....I doubt it would get followed at all. ^_^
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
The 89th Key
Dec 3 2009, 12:14 PM
This is assuming folks would follow the proper etiquette of flag use. Given the number of American flag shirts I see....I doubt it would get followed at all. ^_^
Which is fine; just set up the condo associations rules to coincide with what we already got.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
Kincaid
Dec 3 2009, 10:59 AM
If Claude Ball moved in next door you'd wish you had an HOA.
I have a few Claude Balls for neighbors, in fact this county has a lot of Claudes and I would take them over any HOA I have ever seen.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Dec 3 2009, 11:24 AM
Mikhailoh
Dec 3 2009, 11:20 AM
OK, I read it. Sorry, but he is in the wrong. In a neighborhood with an HOA you simply cannot do whatever you want, no matter how noble the purpose or individual. His distinguished service helped preserve a system where you can enter into the contracts you want to with little interference. It did not make him immune to the conditions of the ones he entered.
It's a stupid rule. He should be allowed to fly the American flag.

But they have the right to have, and to enforce, stupid rules. There is nothing in the Constitution or in federal (or to my knowledge) state law that says that homeowners associations can't have stupid rules.

As you say, Contracts 101. He didn't have to buy the house if he didn't want to be subject to their stupid rules.
I thought he is allowed to fly an American flag, just not from a flagpole.

It's the flagpole, not the flag, that is the issue.

Fly the very same flag from, say, one of those stick that attaches to your house at a 45º angle, and the HOA would be OK with it.

(Well, at least that's what I saw/heard on cable news earlier anyway.)
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
At the end of the day, it's still private property.

A man should be allowed to do what he wishes with his own property, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of his neighbors.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Normally he is. But when you buy into a neighborhood with an HOA, you forgo those rights in order t hat your neighbor not be allowed to put up concrete deer statues or blackface stable boys or whatever as they see fit. If you don't want that, don't live there. But don't buy it and then bitch about it.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Jolly
Dec 3 2009, 02:05 PM
At the end of the day, it's still private property.

A man should be allowed to do what he wishes with his own property, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of his neighbors.
He bought subject to rules. He knew the rules when he bought. If he didn't like the rules, he didn't have to buy.

A man honors his word. When he signed on the dotted line, he agreed to honor the rules of the property.

Oh, and by the way, ALL property has rules. Ever heard of the concept of an "easement"? Or land use restrictions? Or zoning?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Dec 3 2009, 02:08 PM
Normally he is. But when you buy into a neighborhood with an HOA, you forgo those rights in order t hat your neighbor not be allowed to put up concrete deer statues or blackface stable boys or whatever as they see fit. If you don't want that, don't live there. But don't buy it and then bitch about it.
+1
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JoeB
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Senior Carp
Quote:
 
That is exactly why I refused to even look at any house encumbered by a HOA.


+3 (at least)

After we purchased our house, a new development went in right next to us complete with an HOA and a bunch of rules (which don't apply to us, of course) and a resident blue haired condo Nazi couple who make life miserable for the victims covered by the covenants.
"There are many ingredients in the stew of annoyance." - Bucky Katt
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Here's what I don't get. If most people in the HOA don't want Nazi-like rule enforcement, why do they elect people who plan to treat the rules that way? Every HOA I've ever heard of elects its directors. The directors can decide whether the rules are too strigent, and whether they want to make a big deal out of every violation or not. If you and a majority of your neighbors want a more relaxed atmosphere, just vote for directors who will not treat the rules as tablets handed down from God.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Edit, how the hell did I quote Quirt in one thread, andhave it pop into another?

Weird.
Edited by Luke's Dad, Dec 3 2009, 03:01 PM.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Like just about any human institution, HOAs have their plusses and minuses. Absolute property rights adherents like Jolly and Mark wouldn't come near 'em like the proverbial 10 foot flagpole, but for a property rights advocate to defend this guy against his own HOA seems hard to understand, because of the other serious issue that property rights people and libertarians also usually hold ... namely free contract.

For this guy to piss and moan about these rules being applied to HIM smells pretty bad.

Many HOAs have rules against vertical flagpoles. I'll bet its actually quite common and that it reflects the basic will of the people who created the rules. As Quirt and other have noted, those rules are not immutable if the group of people who own property in the HOA changes significantly over time.

My problem with HOAs is that they sometimes are run by ... how do I put this delicately ... people who have too much time on their hands and who take too much pleasure running other people's affairs, all the while believing deeply that they are simply being public spirited.

This may help explain the the Nazi-like rule enforcement Quirt discusses. If the people who participate in the HOA actively are disproportionately these folks with too much time on their hands (while others are busy dealing with work and children etc) then the HOA's executive actions don't reflect some perfect democratic world, but rather the views of the minority who are active.

Yes, the silent majority can always take over, and that is the ultimate sanction, but in the world inhabited by most of us, a minority usually runs things.
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George K
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Finally
Luke's Dad
Dec 3 2009, 03:00 PM
Edit, how the hell did I quote Quirt in one thread, andhave it pop into another?

Weird.
(aside)

Probably related to the search function. :comphit:

(/aside)
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Dec 3 2009, 11:15 AM
My condo association says you aren't allowed to fly any flags, except the American flag. That's the way it should be.

Umm...nope. Wrong there. You should be able to fly any flag, just not those stupid flower or dog ones.
And how are you today?
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
Dec 3 2009, 02:26 PM

Oh, and by the way, ALL property has rules. Ever heard of the concept of an "easement"? Or land use restrictions? Or zoning?
Not where I live, no LUR's or zoning. The only easements we have are the county roads that border the property, you own to the middle of the road.

This could be good or bad depending how much you worry about your neighbor. I concern myself with me, not what my neighbor does.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I have a vertical flag pole. Telescoping, anodized aluminum actually. Very cool flag pole. I can make it as short or as tall as I want.

I can fly any flag I want too. I suppose I could not fly a pron flag if they even exist. :D Not that I would anyway.

Nobody can tell me what flag I can or cannot fly and nobody can tell me what kind of pole I have to fly it upon.

:P

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I have easements on my property for power and water but they have never caused me any problems in the 8 years I have been here.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mikhailoh
Dec 3 2009, 11:16 AM
QuirtEvans
Dec 3 2009, 10:58 AM
Larry
Dec 3 2009, 10:35 AM
I'd fly it, and tell the to go get screwed.

You'd get fined, you'd refuse to pay the fine, and then you'd have a lien placed on your property. If you ever wanted to sell, you'd have to clear the lien first.

Or you'd sue them, or they'd sue you. But, either way, you'd lose. Because you knew the rules before you moved in, even if you didn't pay attention.
Having spent the bulk of this morning administering mine (we're transitioning between management companies), I have to agree with Quirt. It is Contracts 101. It can be inconvenient, but that is what you agreed to.

That said, I fly the flag each and every day. What it sounds like to me is he must want to erect a proper vertical flagpole. I guess I'd better read the link.
I don't think it's that clear cut, since the HOA allows for flags to begin with (which does reasonably presume a flagpole of some sort), and "aesthetically appropriate" is a judgment call -- not a definable point of law. However, judgment calls are often allowed by the CCRs and (as is our case) the Architectural Committee has complete control and cannot be appealed beyond their judgment. Even the Board of Directors can only remove the Architectural Committee but cannot overrule their decisions.

It is also depends on whether the CC&Rs require that any (or certain) exterior modifications must be approved by a committee, even if they are allowable under the CC&Rs, and if so if he first sought permission. If he did not have to seek permission, then he has some grounds for challenge since flag poles are allowable. If he did have to seek permission and did not do so, then he has no grounds but has to comply. My guess is that the HOA is responding to a neighbor complaint, and for whatever reasons they are ruling against him when they could easily find grounds to rule for him if they wanted to (since "aesthetically appropriate" is a judgment call).

In short, it is a political issue within the HOA, and it depends entirely on the will and personalities of the oversight/approval committee. If he were in my community (where I incidentally am chair of the architectural committee) I would let him have his flag pole at an appropriate and reasonable height. After all, we don't know from the article if he erected a 15' staff or a 150' staff.

If they want to get into a pissing contest with this guy, they are going to suffer, and it is a stupid battle to fight. The press and public opinion are going to be against them, and make it harder to enact all the things that they really need to do.



The dogma lives loudly within me.
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plays88keys
Pisa-Carp
Just received this update:

"Col. Van T. Barfoot was facing a 5 p.m. deadline tomorrow (12/4/09) to remove the flagpole or deal with the legal consequences of willfully violating an order from his neighborhood's community association.

Senator Mark Warner (D-VA) has "intervened to help negotiate a settlement in the dispute".

That deadline has now been moved back one week. This is good news! The media coverage, public support, phone calls, emails and faxes DO make a difference."
You can never get enough of what you don't need to make you happy.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Why move into a place that forbids what you like?
Don't people read the papers they sign?
No sympathy here.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Plays, I know your patriotic instincts are with this guy. But do you think that it's OK for anyone who wants to put up a flagpole against the expressed policy of his or her HOA? Or is it just OK if you are a veteran? What is the real issue with you? Why is this seemingly simple contract issue so vital. Mark Warner's intervention can be seen as crass pandering just as easily as it can be viewed as principled intervention. I can easily imagine that such political intervention would be viewed in the crasser light by people on the right if it was for a left wing cause.

Remember here, I'm NOT on the left. I just happen to think that HOA processes are not the devil incarnate. I believe that people should be responsible for the contracts that they sign.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
lb1
Dec 3 2009, 03:27 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 3 2009, 02:26 PM

Oh, and by the way, ALL property has rules. Ever heard of the concept of an "easement"? Or land use restrictions? Or zoning?
Not where I live, no LUR's or zoning. The only easements we have are the county roads that border the property, you own to the middle of the road.

This could be good or bad depending how much you worry about your neighbor. I concern myself with me, not what my neighbor does.

lb
I guess you don't have electricity lines? You have your own source of power?

And you don't have public water, you get your water from a well?

Even so, you admitted you have an easement for that county road. You can't do what you want on your property, to the extent that the county road runs over your property.

However, you're right. It was hyperbole on my part. Not EVERY piece of property in America has an easement.

Most do, particularly in populated areas.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Piano*Dad
Dec 3 2009, 05:26 PM
Plays, I know your patriotic instincts are with this guy. But do you think that it's OK for anyone who wants to put up a flagpole against the expressed policy of his or her HOA? Or is it just OK if you are a veteran? What is the real issue with you? Why is this seemingly simple contract issue so vital. Mark Warner's intervention can be seen as crass pandering just as easily as it can be viewed as principled intervention. I can easily imagine that such political intervention would be viewed in the crasser light by people on the right if it was for a left wing cause.

Remember here, I'm NOT on the left. I just happen to think that HOA processes are not the devil incarnate. I believe that people should be responsible for the contracts that they sign.
I didn't see where the HOA had an expressed policy against flag poles. If they allow flags and pennants, they presumably have to allow for some sort of flag pole. Without having access to the CCRs, or knowing the dimension of the offending flag pole, or the approvals process, there is just too much conjecture to make any declarative statements.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
Dec 3 2009, 05:28 PM
I guess you don't have electricity lines? You have your own source of power?

And you don't have public water, you get your water from a well?

Even so, you admitted you have an easement for that county road. You can't do what you want on your property, to the extent that the county road runs over the edge of one side of your property.

However, you're right. It was hyperbole on my part. Not EVERY piece of property in America has an easement.

Most do, particularly in populated areas.
Bold mine.

I own the electric and phone lines, the meters are on the pole at the edge of the property and I have my own water supply. I agree though that this is an unusual situation but I shopped for quite awhile before I found this property. My neighborhood is pretty sewed up and secure but there are places in the county where it would be hell to live because of the laxness of ordinances. I'll try to post a few pictures in a couple days, you probably wouldn't believe it.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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