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Seattle police kill suspected cop killer
Topic Started: Dec 1 2009, 04:17 AM (543 Views)
jon-nyc
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Cheers
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/12/01/us/AP-US-Officers-Shot.html?_r=1
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Predictable.

And efficient.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
"working-class neighborhood". What quaint phrasing :rolleyes2:

And how are you today?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I hope they didn't just murder him in cold blood for revenge.
I hope they followed procedures.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well, he didn't stop when told to.
And how are you today?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
kenny
Dec 1 2009, 08:59 AM
I hope they didn't just murder him in cold blood for revenge.
I hope the followed procedures.
Of course they followed procedure! :spit:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
I had a feeling the suspect would never see the inside of a courtroom.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
LWpianistin
Dec 1 2009, 09:08 AM
Well, he didn't stop when told to.
So ya shoot him in the leg.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
kenny
Dec 1 2009, 08:59 AM
I hope they didn't just murder him in cold blood for revenge.
I hope they followed procedures.
Yeah, I'm real distraught about that, too.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Shoot him in the leg? Only in a Hollywood movie.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Red Rice
Dec 1 2009, 10:12 AM
Shoot him in the leg? Only in a Hollywood movie.
Amen.

High stress situation? Center mass, center mass.

Kenny should have learned to shoot during basic training...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Apart from anything else, shooting him in the leg isn't really going to stop him from making it five.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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jgoo
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Administrator
He also had one of the stolen guns. He killed four already, he probably would have gone for another had he not been stopped. A report I heard earlier said that he was reaching for the gun as he was running away.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Dec 1 2009, 10:10 AM
LWpianistin
Dec 1 2009, 09:08 AM
Well, he didn't stop when told to.
So ya shoot him in the leg.
If he was a suspected killer next to a stolen car with a gun, which is a direct threat to the officers' lives, then yes, you shoot him, but not in the leg; hopefully most officers would have a better aim.
And how are you today?
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
kenny
Dec 1 2009, 08:59 AM
I hope they didn't just murder him in cold blood for revenge.
I hope they followed procedures.
Come on guys, don't be deliberately dense about what (I think) Kenny is saying.

It certainly doesn't sound to me like Kenny was suggesting that the police should have walked up to him and politely asked him to step into the squad car. Of course they should "aim for the center" if they were threatened. That's a far cry from walking up to a downed suspect, putting a gun to his head and saying "this is for John, Jim, Justin, and Jamie" and then blowing his brains out.

Do you actually want your police to behave like the savages we see so often in, oh, the less developed parts of the world that many here rail against?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Piano*Dad
Dec 2 2009, 05:20 AM
Of course they should "aim for the center" if they were threatened.
I would perceive someone who shot and killed four of my fellow officers while they were sitting in a coffee shop pretty ****ing threatening, and would treat a confrontation with him accordingly.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
That's not my point. Would you walk up to a badly wounded man lying harmless on the ground, put a gun to his head, and blow out his brains in revenge.

If you answer yes, I would hope the DA would have the balls to ruffle public opinion and put your ass in jail.


edit: Nor was it Kenny's point, I think.

Edited by Piano*Dad, Dec 2 2009, 06:07 AM.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Piano*Dad
Dec 2 2009, 05:20 AM
kenny
Dec 1 2009, 08:59 AM
I hope they didn't just murder him in cold blood for revenge.
I hope they followed procedures.
Come on guys, don't be deliberately dense about what (I think) Kenny is saying.

It certainly doesn't sound to me like Kenny was suggesting that the police should have walked up to him and politely asked him to step into the squad car. Of course they should "aim for the center" if they were threatened. That's a far cry from walking up to a downed suspect, putting a gun to his head and saying "this is for John, Jim, Justin, and Jamie" and then blowing his brains out.

Do you actually want your police to behave like the savages we see so often in, oh, the less developed parts of the world that many here rail against?
Is that what happened? If so then it should be prosecuted. I didn't realize that he was incapacitated and assassinated.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The guy was armed and running, and had already killed four police officers. Attempting to shoot him in the leg would have been incredibly stupid.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Piano*Dad
Dec 2 2009, 06:06 AM
That's not my point. Would you walk up to a badly wounded man lying harmless on the ground, put a gun to his head, and blow out his brains in revenge.

If you answer yes, I would hope the DA would have the balls to ruffle public opinion and put your ass in jail.


edit: Nor was it Kenny's point, I think.

A story...

A few years ago, some inmates took over the prison library at Angola, the maximum security prison for the state of Louisiana. It was done by a small group, with many inmates in the library standing by passively.

During the scuffle, a guard was killed. IIRC, I think they eventually killed him by drowning him in a toilet. There were other guards taken hostage, along with some civilian employees. The hostage-takers issued a series of demands, and said they would kill off the hostages if their demands were not met.

The warden at the time was Burl Cain. Now, you have to know Burl...kind of folksy, a good manager who tries to take care of his employees and convicts, but also a man who doesn't brook much foolishness. Burl walked in to the library and talked to the prisoners, face-to-face...in that situation, it took a washtub full of guts to do that.

But it allowed him to separate the sheep from the goats. Burl knew with certainty who the ringleader was, who probably killed the guard and which convicts were not involved in this incident, but were just victims of circumstance. He also made sure his remaining people were still ok.

And before he left, he passed word to one of the trustees to have those convicts not involved, to immediately lay prone on the floor, should anything such as an armed confrontation occur.

When he talked to the Entrance Team, he made the aware who the ringleaders were, and every man on that team knew who had killed the guard. And they knew what they needed to do.

During the ensuing action, the convict who killed the guard had his face blown off by a couple of close-range buckshot rounds. He was the only convict killed, although some of his partners suffered various gunshot wounds.

Nothing that would stand up in court, but yeah, the message was sent. And no, you couldn't find a court in this state who would convict that officer.

Law and courts are good for most of man's conflicts, be they civil or criminal. It doesn't happen often, but rarely you may have to show the animals who is running the zoo, in the only language they understand.

In Washington, I don't care if the officer shoved the barrel in the perp's ear before he pulled the trigger. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Piano*Dad
Dec 2 2009, 06:06 AM
That's not my point. Would you walk up to a badly wounded man lying harmless on the ground, put a gun to his head, and blow out his brains in revenge.

If you answer yes, I would hope the DA would have the balls to ruffle public opinion and put your ass in jail.


edit: Nor was it Kenny's point, I think.

To be honest I don't really see what your point is then. The officer shot Clemmons while he was reaching for a gun -- one that he took from one of the officers he killed. I don't see how that has anything to do with walking up to a badly wounded man lying harmless on the ground and blowing his brains out.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Its not like they didn't know he was dangerous.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
A few years ago, there was a cop killing in Baltimore. I happened to be working in Baltimore for a few weeks during this period. The killer had been spotted driving a blue four door sedan (I can't remember make and model right now) and the APB's were out. One day while driving home, I was getting off 695 and onto the 95 South entrance ramp. I had to pull over as four squad cars went past me, lights and sirens blasting. Then, at the yield, I had to wait as another 15-20 squad cars went past (lights and sirens going). At this point, I noticed the helicopters. "Oh Crap, I figured." I pulled over and waited about 15 minutes figuring I didn't want to get in the middle of whatever was going on. About two miles down the road I could see the light. It looked like 50-60 squad cars at a rest stop all around a single blue car with a guy face down in the dirt.

Turned out, it was the wrong guy. Just some young kid having just moved to the area, having the wrong color and model of a car, that was spotted by a passing patrol car as he was putting on his new MD license plates. I felt for the guy.

One thing that will drive a cop over the edge is a cop killer. If they go over the line a little in these apprehensions it's almost excusable. Almost.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Dec 2 2009, 06:29 AM
Piano*Dad
Dec 2 2009, 05:20 AM
kenny
Dec 1 2009, 08:59 AM
I hope they didn't just murder him in cold blood for revenge.
I hope they followed procedures.
Come on guys, don't be deliberately dense about what (I think) Kenny is saying.

It certainly doesn't sound to me like Kenny was suggesting that the police should have walked up to him and politely asked him to step into the squad car. Of course they should "aim for the center" if they were threatened. That's a far cry from walking up to a downed suspect, putting a gun to his head and saying "this is for John, Jim, Justin, and Jamie" and then blowing his brains out.

Do you actually want your police to behave like the savages we see so often in, oh, the less developed parts of the world that many here rail against?
Is that what happened? If so then it should be prosecuted. I didn't realize that he was incapacitated and assassinated.
I don't know what happened in this case. I haven't bothered to read the story.

My point is hypothetical, as was Kenny's.

Police departments have procedures. Following those procedures does not require suicidal approaches to criminals who are armed and dangerous. But it also requires behavior from the police that follow basic ethical norms. Many of the reactions to Kenny seemed to be premised on the idea that killing the guy was just fine and dandy because he was dangerous and/or because of what he had done to their brethren. All I was posting was a situation in which that idea becomes either absurd or virulently immoral itself, hence the hypothetical downed suspect who is now harmless. Do you then walk up to him and blow off his face. I argued that the answer to that was a clear NO.

I understand Jolly's counterexample, and I would agree that that warden had guts to spare in how he exposed himself to danger in order to gather information. I would disagree that it is OK for the Louisiana police to assassinate the convict who someone 'thought' was probably the ringleader just to show "the animals" who was in charge of the zoo. If you have evidence that a particular person drowned the guard, you present that evidence in open court to see if it stands scrutiny. If it does, you put the guy in 'Old Sparky' following accepted legal procedures.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
My post was not mysterious or ambiguous.

I hope they didn't just murder him in cold blood for revenge.
I hope they followed procedures.
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