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Sally Quinn on Sarah Palin's Rogue Christianity
Topic Started: Nov 18 2009, 07:53 AM (1,409 Views)
Beacon Chris
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Junior Carp
Jeff
Nov 18 2009, 07:39 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 18 2009, 05:44 PM
The Old Testament
Never liked that phrase.

I mean, all of it is pretty old, doncha think?

Not really, Jeff.

I think the new testament could also be called the "living" testament. For certain Christians the term "new" could also be described as "current"

Your statement is interesting, though. Are you a Christian?
How you durrin?
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Beacon Chris
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Junior Carp
By the way, why does Sally Quinn feel entitled to define Sarah Palin's Christianity? She certainly doesn't define mine. Palin's entitled to her own faith just like anyone else.
How you durrin?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
That's nothing. Have you seen the new Newsweek?
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Beacon Chris
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Larry
Nov 18 2009, 08:30 AM
Does Sally Quinn know the context the statement was made in? Has she taken the time to learn about it? Is she using it to chastise Palin because she cares about her spiritual condition, or is her motivation to use it as a weapon to attack Palin for political differences? If Quinn's motivation is to discuss Palin's spiritual life, she should discuss it with Palin in private. If her goal is something other than that, then she's using it as a weapon. Now who is not following God's directions?

And most importantly - if turning the other cheek is Quinn's real concern, if she thinks it's wrong not to turn the other cheek, why didn't Quinn turn the other cheek herself?

Very well put, Larry. Very articulate.

Although, I find it a wee bit disturbing (perhaps more distracting) to look at your avatar while trying to carry on a discussion about Jesus!

How you durrin?
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Beacon Chris
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Mikhailoh
Nov 18 2009, 07:58 PM
That's nothing. Have you seen the new Newsweek?
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Can you believe that cover? Cruel and nasty.
How you durrin?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
QuirtEvans
Nov 18 2009, 05:44 PM
Larry
Nov 18 2009, 10:24 AM
Uh... John... you do know the difference between Jewish Law and Christianity, right?...
The Old Testament is still in the King James Bible, last I checked.
Quirt, do *you* know the difference between Judaism and Christianity?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Very well put, Larry. Very articulate.

Although, I find it a wee bit disturbing (perhaps more distracting) to look at your avatar while trying to carry on a discussion about Jesus!



Just keeping a little bit of heaven handy..... :D
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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Larry
Nov 18 2009, 08:53 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 18 2009, 05:44 PM
Larry
Nov 18 2009, 10:24 AM
Uh... John... you do know the difference between Jewish Law and Christianity, right?...
The Old Testament is still in the King James Bible, last I checked.
Quirt, do *you* know the difference between Judaism and Christianity?

I do.

Did you know that the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Not really, Jeff.

I think the new testament could also be called the "living" testament. For certain Christians the term "new" could also be described as "current"

Your statement is interesting, though. Are you a Christian?


:popcorn:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
21 For surely you have heard about him and were taught in him, as truth is in Jesus.
22 You were taught to put away your former way of life, your old self, corrupt and deluded by its lusts,
23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
24 and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
25 So then, putting away falsehood, let all of us speak the truth to our neighbors, for we are members of one another.
26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27 and do not make room for the devil.
28 Thieves must give up stealing; rather let them labor and work honestly with their own hands, so as to have something to share with the needy.
29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only what is useful for building up, as there is need, so that your words may give grace to those who hear.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption.
31 Put away from you all bitterness and wrath and anger and wrangling and slander, together with all malice,
32 and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you.
(Eph 4:21-32 NRS)

=====

37 While he was speaking, a Pharisee invited him to dine with him; so he went in and took his place at the table.
38 The Pharisee was amazed to see that he did not first wash before dinner.
39 Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
40 You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
41 So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you.
42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God; it is these you ought to have practiced, without neglecting the others.
43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love to have the seat of honor in the synagogues and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces.
44 Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without realizing it."
45 One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us too."
46 And he said, "Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.
47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your ancestors killed.
48 So you are witnesses and approve of the deeds of your ancestors; for they killed them, and you build their tombs.
49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,'
50 so that this generation may be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation.
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering."
53 When he went outside, the scribes and the Pharisees began to be very hostile toward him and to cross-examine him about many things,
54 lying in wait for him, to catch him in something he might say.
(Luk 11:37-54 NRS)

=====

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth?
8 Such persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
9 A little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough.
10 I am confident about you in the Lord that you will not think otherwise. But whoever it is that is confusing you will pay the penalty.
11 But my friends, why am I still being persecuted if I am still preaching circumcision? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed.
12 I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves!
(Gal 5:6-12 NRS)

It would seem there's a time and place for righteous anger within the faith. I don't know anything about Palin's book, but I'd say that within the scriptural passages above, there's enough to chew on for any Christian, and especially for any Christian who would be a politician - Democrat, Republican, or otherwise - or in any other position of power.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Beacon Chris
Nov 18 2009, 07:59 PM
Although, I find it a wee bit disturbing (perhaps more distracting) to look at your avatar while trying to carry on a discussion about Jesus!

It's the first word that comes to my mind.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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Dewey
Nov 19 2009, 04:02 AM

It would seem there's a time and place for righteous anger within the faith.
Quote:
 
do not let the sun go down on your anger


You surely know scripture better than I do ... but your statement is not incompatible with the one above. To me, you reconcile the two by saying, if you feel anger, express it when you feel it, but get it out of your system. Which is precisely what I said to Jolly above ... Jesus demonstrates that you can be angry in the moment, but if you're still angry about it a year letter and harboring a grudge, you're letting it fester, and that's probably not what Jesus meant.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think you're right, but I also think there's more, and I was actually alluding to both your point and another - actually, a couple of others, but the primary "other" is that a believer is not called to simply shut up and take abuse silently, without putting voice to the issue, and calling out the one who is doing the wrong. To do exactly that is part of the mix, as much as not harboring a grudge once the point has been made. To me, the question would be, now that Palin has had a chance to call things as she sees them via this book - and again, I haven't even read snips of it - what will she do from this point forward? If she moves forward, great; if she allows the wrongs - both perceived and real - to dictate her living, then she's in error. The same is true for any politician who professes to be a believer, or any believer at all, for that matter.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The bottom line for me is that I really don't care whether Sarah Palin is a Christian or not - she's a bit of a silly mare.

I'm not sure whether the Bible deals with being a silly mare or not. There's that story about the ten foolish virgins, but that doesn't really apply here, I suspect. Lot's wife? Again, no. Incidentally, it's a little known fact that following the debacle of Soddhom, Lot went on to open a fish and chip shop. 'Would you like salt and vinegar?..we've had a bit of a run on the salt, so help yourself!'

I think if we really want to get down to brass tacks, I'll drop The Bible, and turn to that that other great resource of philosophical wisdom, Star Wars:

"Who's the bigger fool -- the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - O. W. Kenobi.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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Dewey
Nov 19 2009, 05:02 AM
I think you're right, but I also think there's more, and I was actually alluding to both your point and another - actually, a couple of others, but the primary "other" is that a believer is not called to simply shut up and take abuse silently, without putting voice to the issue, and calling out the one who is doing the wrong. To do exactly that is part of the mix, as much as not harboring a grudge once the point has been made. To me, the question would be, now that Palin has had a chance to call things as she sees them via this book - and again, I haven't even read snips of it - what will she do from this point forward? If she moves forward, great; if she allows the wrongs - both perceived and real - to dictate her living, then she's in error. The same is true for any politician who professes to be a believer, or any believer at all, for that matter.
Wouldn't the more Christian thing to do have been to call things as she saw them a year ago, when the events transpired, rather than waiting a year to put it in a book? OK, maybe you wait until after the election ... but some of the little snips that she waited to put in the book (like Steve Schmidt allegedly cursing in front of her daughter) surely didn't merit carrying around with her for more than a year.

You are free to see it differently, but in my view, she worships the gods of money and power far more than she does Jesus.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Wouldn't the more Christian thing to do have been to call things as she saw them a year ago, when the events transpired, rather than waiting a year to put it in a book? OK, maybe you wait until after the election ... but some of the little snips that she waited to put in the book (like Steve Schmidt allegedly cursing in front of her daughter) surely didn't merit carrying around with her for more than a year.


Before we get to the "Christian thing," we need to see the "human thing" - and we humans, Christians or otherwise, don't get over hurts immediately, and we rarely get over them easily. Hurts leave remnants that may take a long time to fully come to terms with. Sometimes the scars of those hurts will last forever. There really is no such thing as that idiotic term "closure." We never have anything like "closure" to the things that have scarred us in life; the best that any of us can hope for is to reconcile ourselves with the scars and learn how to move forward positively, in spite of, and hopefully strengthened by, the events.

In that light, Palin's dumping all her "stuff" in the book is a part of that reconciling and moving on. Of course, at this point, she could go either way, dwelling on the hurts (or even worse, using them exploitatively for political manipulation) and going backward, or learning how to process them and moving forward. That will be her challenge. And I don't see the time lag between the campaign and now as particularly long. Whether you like her or hate her, you have to admit she has taken some major body blows, and that kind of thing takes a while to deal with, whether you're in a position to write a book about it or not. Like I said, the real important thing to her as a person, and particularly in terms of her faith, is how she proceeds from here.


Quote:
 
You are free to see it differently, but in my view, she worships the gods of money and power far more than she does Jesus.


Actually, I don't see it differently at all. In fact, I'm sure that she does. Of course, I believe that everybody, Christian or otherwise, is guilty of the exact same thing in one way or another.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
QuirtEvans
Nov 19 2009, 03:28 AM
Larry
Nov 18 2009, 08:53 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 18 2009, 05:44 PM
Larry
Nov 18 2009, 10:24 AM
Uh... John... you do know the difference between Jewish Law and Christianity, right?...
The Old Testament is still in the King James Bible, last I checked.
Quirt, do *you* know the difference between Judaism and Christianity?

I do.

Did you know that the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible?
I do.

Now, do you know how the two books fit into Christian teaching? Do you know that Christians do not follow Jewish Law?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Nov 19 2009, 11:24 AM
QuirtEvans
Nov 19 2009, 03:28 AM
Larry
Nov 18 2009, 08:53 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 18 2009, 05:44 PM
Larry
Nov 18 2009, 10:24 AM
Uh... John... you do know the difference between Jewish Law and Christianity, right?...
The Old Testament is still in the King James Bible, last I checked.
Quirt, do *you* know the difference between Judaism and Christianity?

I do.

Did you know that the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible?
I do.

Now, do you know how the two books fit into Christian teaching? Do you know that Christians do not follow Jewish Law?

I know that it's part of the Bible, and that Christians are supposed to follow ALL of the Bible, not just the New Testament, and not just the parts they like. It is, after all, the word of God.

2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Matthew 5:18-19: And Jesus said,...... "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

Here's an analysis that comports with my understanding:

Quote:
 
The Law of Moses regulated almost every aspect of life in Old Testament times. But with the coming of Christ, God established a new covenant of faith and love with mankind. Christians are not required to follow the Old Testament rules about crimes and punishments, warfare, slavery, diet, circumcision, sacrifice, feast days, Sabbath observance, ritual cleanness, etc. However, the moral and ethical teachings of Jesus and His apostles call for even greater self-discipline than those of the Old Testament.

* * * *

Jesus said that was not at all what God had intended. Jesus did not abolish the moral and ethical laws that had been in effect from the time of Moses (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:16-17). He affirmed and expanded upon those principles, but He said obedience must be from the heart (attitudes and intentions) rather than just technical observance of the letter of the law (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44, etc.).

* * * *

With the coming of Christ, God has established a new covenant with mankind (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:8-13, 9:11-15) that supersedes the Old Testament Law.

Jesus and His apostles gave us a radically new understanding of the true intent of the Old Testament Law; they brought a new era of the rule of love for all people and spiritual truth instead of rule by law (Luke 10:25-28, John 13:34-35, Ephesians 2:14-18).

Conclusion
The teachings of Jesus, the Council of Jerusalem, and other New Testament teachings (John 1:16-17, Acts 13:39, Romans 2:25-29, 8:1-4, 1 Corinthians 9:19-21, Galatians 2:15-16, Ephesians 2:15) make it clear that Christians are not required to follow the Old Testament rules about crimes and punishments, warfare, slavery, diet, circumcision, sacrifice, feast days, Sabbath observance, ritual cleanness, etc.

Christians still look to the Old Testament scripture for moral and spiritual guidance (2 Timothy 3:16-17). But when there seems to be a conflict between Old Testament laws and New Testament principles, we must follow the New Testament because it represents the most recent and most perfect revelation from God (Hebrews 8:13, 2 Corinthians 3:1-18, Galatians 2:15-20).

However, freedom from the Old Testament Law is not a license for Christians to relax their moral standards. The moral and ethical teachings of Jesus and His apostles call for even greater self-discipline than those of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-48, 7:1-5, 15:18-19, 25:37-40, Mark 7:21-23, 12:28-31, Luke 12:15, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13, Galatians 5:19-21, James 1:27, 2:15-16, 1 John 3:17-19).



In other words ... where the New Testament and the Old Testament conflict, the New Testament governs. Where the Old Testament sets forth outmoded rules of behavior, those rules need no longer be followed. However, where the Old Testament set forth moral standards, those standards are still to be followed, possibly even more stringently.

http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_OldTestamentLaw.htm

All of which is irrelevant to the point under discussion here, since the part about turning the other cheek is in the New Testament.


It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
Speaking of "Rogue"...

Washington Post columnist Sally Quinn.

Quote:
 
The roots of Quinn’s mysticism run deep. When she was a little girl, she and her siblings spent summers with her mother’s family in the southern Georgia burg of Statesboro. Much of the clan embraced the spookier side of its Scottish heritage. “The stones and the past lives and time travel and psychic experience,” says Quinn. “They were all psychic, believing in ghosts, palmistry, tarot cards.” The “help,” meanwhile, had a way with voodoo.

“So those are my first religious memories,” she explains. “And these are the things that have stayed with me. I can sort of intellectualize and say this is all nonsense. The fact is that, deep down, I mean if you’re brought up Catholic and you think you’re going to go to hell, [even if you leave the church] you’re never quite sure whether you’re going to hell or not. It’s always there in the back of your head.”

Quinn has consulted psychics for years and, until recently, would conduct readings herself for family and friends. “When I first met Sally and Ben, it was right after Watergate,” recalls ABC News correspondent Martha Raddatz, who was once married to Quinn’s stepson Ben Bradlee Jr. “She took out the tarot cards, and I was like, ‘What the heck is she talking about?’”

Quinn also introduces the ghosts—literal, not metaphorical—she has met over the years, including at Grey Gardens, the East Hampton estate she and Bradlee bought from relatives of Jackie Kennedy. Some spirits were regulars whom Quinn knew by name; others popped up only now and again. “Big Edie” Beale, one of the deceased former owners of Grey Gardens, was forever sending Quinn messages and signs. “Did I really believe she had made everything perfect for us for so many years?” writes Quinn. “Yes, I did.”

Quinn would practice her own magic in the gardener’s cottage. “She used to take her cards out to the little thatched hut,” recalls writer Leslie Marshall, an ex-wife of Quinn’s stepson Dino Bradlee and one of Sally’s closest friends. “The place has the right ambience for the occult.”

Ouija boards, astrological charts, palm reading, talismans—Quinn embraces it all. And yes, she has been in contact with her husband since his passing. Through a medium. Repeatedly.
And, her spells:
Quote:
 
The first, cast in 1969, was spurred by old-fashioned jealousy. Some exotic beauty at a Halloween party inspired lust in Quinn’s beau at the time—and then killed herself just days after Sally cast her spell.

Her second victim was Clay Felker, the longtime editor of New York magazine who oversaw a brutal profile of Quinn in 1973, just before her catastrophic debut on the CBS Morning News. Quinn hexed Felker not long after flaming out at CBS and returning to Washington. “Some time afterward, Rupert Murdoch bought New York magazine in a hostile takeover, and Felker was out,” she writes. “Clay never recovered professionally. Worse, he got cancer, which ultimately caused his death.”

Target number three: a shady psychic who, the autumn after Quinn Bradlee was born, ran afoul of Sally’s maternal instincts. The woman dropped dead before year’s end.

Now and again, Quinn stresses that she doesn’t take her psychic abilities too seriously. “I still don’t know whether I believe in hexes or not,” she writes. “All I can say is that there always seemed to be some cause and effect.” (Certainly Bradlee did not: “Ben found the whole idea of these hexes completely ridiculous, as do most people. However when he got mad at someone, he’d look at me with a mischievous grin and say, ‘Go get ’em, Sal.’ ”)

But the denials ring hollow. The book is awash in tales of Quinn’s occult prowess—she wants people to take this seriously, or at least to believe she takes this seriously. At the very least, she scared herself so badly when her third curse hit its mark—prompting a panic that her previous hexes had been karmically responsible for her son’s illness—that she vowed never to dabble in the dark arts again. Period.

Which is probably for the best in these overheated political times. “You can’t imagine the number of people who have asked me to put a hex on Donald Trump—I mean, I have got friends lined up,” she says. “This is my biggest restraint now.”
But, Sarah Palin's the "rogue."
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

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- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
It's the same old crap...First, hold any Christian to a standard of perfection. Second, ignore any and all faults of the accuser.

It's a rigged game that the accused cannot win.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
Jolly
Aug 31 2017, 05:39 PM
It's the same old crap...First, hold any Christian to a standard of perfection. Second, ignore any and all faults of the accuser.

It's a rigged game that the accused cannot win.
Rules for radicals.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Aug 31 2017, 05:39 PM
It's the same old crap...First, hold any Christian to a standard of perfection. Second, ignore any and all faults of the accuser.

It's a rigged game that the accused cannot win.
1. You'll be happy to know that I do not think any Christian is perfect.

2. The fault of the accusers have no bearing on whether the accusations are factually true.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Don't be an ass, Ax.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Mikhailoh
Sep 1 2017, 05:05 AM
Don't be an ass, Ax.
Can't fight genetics. :smokin:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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