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| Krauthammer - Why Obamacare is sinking | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 24 2009, 04:20 AM (341 Views) | |
| Mikhailoh | Jul 24 2009, 04:20 AM Post #1 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Copper | Jul 24 2009, 05:56 AM Post #2 |
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Shortstop
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The surest path to oblivion. If he made the debate into a “Manhattan Project” to improve health he could sell it. It’s a political shouting match. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 24 2009, 06:05 AM Post #3 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Agree 100% with Krauthammer. Health care reform is D.O.A. without cost control, and tort reform is crucial to that. The universal coverage that Democrats point to as an example in other Western countries could not exist in the malpractice free-for-all climate we have here in the States. The Democrats want industry, providers and taxpayers to bear the costs of health care reform but want to keep the malpractice lawyers happy. WTF. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Axtremus | Jul 24 2009, 06:14 AM Post #4 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Re: CBO cost estimate -- see http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/topic/7158750/1/ Re: "Tort reform" cost saving -- show me the numbers... I asked before if there is any estimate or promise for malpractice insurance premium reduction that accompanies any particular "tort reform" proposal -- I have yet to see any. |
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| Red Rice | Jul 24 2009, 06:18 AM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That's not where the majority of cost savings will come from. The savings will come from decreasing unnecessary costs and procedures. Here's some numbers, based on the Texas experience: http://www.physiciansforreform.org/index.php?id=17 |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 24 2009, 06:19 AM Post #6 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I've said this before ... not all doctors are diligent. Doctors put people's lives on the line when they are less than diligent. For some doctors, the only thing that makes them diligent is fear. So, you have three choices. Encourage diligence through regulation (far more intrusive regulation than we have now). Encourage diligence through fear of lawsuits. Or accept that there will be some doctors that aren't diligent, and that people will be hurt or die as a result, but that that's just the cost of doing business. Blaming the cost of health care on malpractice claims is just plain silly, unless you're willing to look at the potential consequences of tort reform. And I say that as someone who isn't a litigator, and really doesn't care if lawyers make any money on malpractice claims. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 24 2009, 06:24 AM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Nonsense. Countries such as Canada, Britain and France do a more than adequate job of protecting patients, without the use of lawsuits as a stick. In Canada for example, patient complaints first go to the provincial college of physicians, where cases are subject to binding arbitration before a panel of laymen and health care professionals. Only cases that are determined to demonstrate criminal negligence are allowed to proceed to the civil courts. The result: less costs, lower malpractice insurance premiums, and unclogged courts. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Larry | Jul 24 2009, 06:28 AM Post #8 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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You know, I've been to a hell of a lot of doctors in my life, and I've been friends with a bunch of them - I would be hard pressed to think of a single one of them who was less than totally diligent in the way they practice. I've also used a hell of a lot of attorneys in my life, and I've been friends with a bunch of them, too. Half of them should be driving a truck for a living. That isn't to throw rocks at you, but to make a point. Maybe we should have government provided legal assistance too. I wonder how may lawyers would like having to work for rates set by the government. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 24 2009, 06:35 AM Post #9 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I think there has to be a balance, and I can't imagine that the premiums I hear of charged today reflect balance. Perhaps George can shed some light on this. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 24 2009, 06:38 AM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I think we already have this in the criminal court system. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| John D'Oh | Jul 24 2009, 06:44 AM Post #11 |
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MAMIL
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We have a friend who's a GP in the UK - she had a look into possible coming to the US but decided against it because of the horrors and costs associated with litigation - and I'd say she was a very diligent individual. So fear of litigation can stop more than bad doctors, it can stop good ones as well. My opinion about the US is that the litigious nature of the society as a whole is a major obstacle against modern success - even more devastating than the curse of modern American 'liberalism'. I don't believe it's primarily the fault of lawyers as many do, I think everyone's to blame. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Axtremus | Jul 24 2009, 06:46 AM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I agree that malpractice insurance premium is not where the major savings will come from. But the premium is what reflects the risk, which in turn drives the "unnecessary costs and procedures." To the extent that people are not willing to link reduction of premium to tort reform, it indicates that they really do not believe the risk will actually come down, or that the insurance companies are unwilling to actually pass down the reduced risk premium to the physicians they insure. I am quite happy to see the "Texas experience" you linked to pointed out a 21% decline in average malpractice insurance premium -- yet it doesn't say anything about the savings presumably cut out from "unnecessary costs and procedures." |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 24 2009, 06:48 AM Post #13 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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And how exactly would you like to measure that? You'd have to have a pretty long timeline of ordering data by physician per patient. Some of these protective procedures are ingrained in current medical protocols, not just physicians covering themselves. It will take time to realize the changes and the savings. I assure you no one determining the protocols is openly saying 'oh, we do it this way to cover our ass from litigation' and they also will not be saying, 'Oh, good - we can quit doing all these things right away'. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 24 2009, 06:50 AM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Ax, right under it on the same link you see:
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 24 2009, 07:09 AM Post #15 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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If a lawyer screws up, you don't lose an arm or die. Same for a plumber, or an accountant, or a musician, or a computer technician. Medicine is just a different sort of category. Kind of like airplane pilots. Besides, no one is saying you shouldn't be able to sue a lawyer who commits malpractice. At least, not me. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 24 2009, 07:11 AM Post #16 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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If there's an effective system of ensuring diligence and punishing malpractice, that's fine with me. I don't particularly like the idea that a plaintiff can get punitive damages to punish the wrongdoer anyway. Punitives should go, in large part, to the government. (Not in whole, because you need to give the plaintiff some incentive to work for them.) However, calling what I said "Nonsense" is foolish, because what you've described is what I would call greater regulation. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 24 2009, 07:15 AM Post #17 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Question: How do the countries who have single payer or national healthcare do it? What regulations have they put in place? Are they effective? |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 24 2009, 07:32 AM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Fair enough, but it's important to note that the greater regulation in the example I gave is not being applied to doctors; I'm sure that most doctors would find having cases settled before a well-informed panel under the auspices of the state much less onerous and costly that having them settled before a jury of laypeople in a civil court. Rather, the greater regulation is being applied to malpractice lawyers and plaintiffs, by subjecting them to binding arbitration and removing the incentive of massive claims. Tort reform, in other words. Other countries feel this is a fair and necessary condition for state-sponsored healthcare, and it is remiss of Obama and Democrats not to address this. If they continue to refuse to do so, health care reform deserves to fail. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| John D'Oh | Jul 24 2009, 07:33 AM Post #19 |
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MAMIL
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In the UK: NHS litigation authority |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Jolly | Jul 24 2009, 07:48 AM Post #20 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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It takes more brainpower to make a single first-class physician than it does to make two second-class lawyers. Alas, Washington is filled with second-class lawyers... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 24 2009, 07:50 AM Post #21 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Thanks, John. Very informative link. From their Claims Management link:
Only 2% of their claims go to court. Pretty desirable situation, if it works. Britain paid 769 million pounds last year in clinical claims. I can't discern from that how much their trusts pay, or how that works out per physician. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Renauda | Jul 24 2009, 07:58 AM Post #22 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Greater perhaps, but it is at least not government regulation. Here the doctors and other professionals such lawyers, engineers, accountants, pharmacists etc. regulate themselves through their Registered Professonal Organizations that are mandated through legislation to regulate. The government has virtually no say in how these organizations license and regulate these professionals to practice. It works and works very well. |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 24 2009, 07:59 AM Post #23 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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That would be very worthwhile looking at for our country. It makes more sense to me to look around worldwide and see what is working well and would it work well here than to try to have Congess crafting legislation based on what will not infuriate their contributing constituencies. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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