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| For our atheist friends; A summer camp for kids | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 23 2009, 05:31 AM (801 Views) | |
| Renauda | Jul 23 2009, 01:48 PM Post #26 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Regrettably there is that small but very vocal, influential and fairly well heeled fringe of theists who purport just that sort of gibberish that are fodder for the invective of Chris Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and other assorted atheists and sceptics of this world. Just as people of reason and good judgement call upon Muslims to denounce the lunatic fringe of their faith, Christians of similar reason and good judgement would be advised to censure whackier literalist elements in the cornucopia of their faith. |
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| Axtremus | Jul 23 2009, 04:10 PM Post #27 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That depends on how you define "heaven" and "hell." If you define "heaven" as the state of being united with god and "hell" as eternal separation from god, then yes, not believing in god eliminates the heaven and hell issues. There are other definitions, e.g., Buddhism has the concept of different levels of "hell" and different levels of "heavens," yet recognizes no god what so ever. So that's atheistic world view that still has the notion of "heaven" and "hell." But the truth is that there's eternal supply of good beer and great sex in the afterlife.
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| sue | Jul 23 2009, 04:50 PM Post #28 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well alrighty then, sign me up for that.
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| brenda | Jul 23 2009, 04:50 PM Post #29 |
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..............
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb1MOCpAoaw |
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| Dewey | Jul 23 2009, 05:04 PM Post #30 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well, not exactly. If God exists, he exists completely independently of whether one believes that God exists or not. Likewise, if heaven and hell exist, they do so completely independently of whether one believes that they exist or not. So not believing in God, or heaven or hell, wouldn't really eliminate those issues at all. It would only eliminate one's thinking that the issues are important. There's a pretty significant difference in the two concepts. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jolly | Jul 23 2009, 05:10 PM Post #31 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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But what if an awful accident happened tomorrow and your child (generically speaking) died? Almost all religions have some kind of afterlife, which gives a believer some hope they will see loved ones once again. Takes somebody very convinced that there is no God, to stand fast to his belief in the face of tremendous sorrow...especially when he may be wrong... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| kenny | Jul 23 2009, 05:16 PM Post #32 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Uhm we prefer the term denomination, Dear. Those atheists in the wrong denominations are going straight to Hell. |
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| Axtremus | Jul 23 2009, 05:17 PM Post #33 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Amended below:
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| brenda | Jul 23 2009, 05:21 PM Post #34 |
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..............
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Tomorrow is another day. |
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| Renauda | Jul 23 2009, 05:27 PM Post #35 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Or straight to Nothinghamshire. |
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| Dewey | Jul 23 2009, 05:34 PM Post #36 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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And while we're on the subject... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCXwTcZ1mAA (and it's cousin...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naaU8YHvoGc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtmuXWCFQzE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAmLXrMv4-c And most importantly... oh, dear Lord, this one brings back great memories. If I had a nickel for every time I was in the middle of this scene... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTfWZgUvmk&feature=related Now THAT's heaven! ![]() |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Axtremus | Jul 23 2009, 05:35 PM Post #37 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No... there is no time limit in my statement. The statement is true at all times. |
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| sue | Jul 23 2009, 06:51 PM Post #38 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yes, tremendous sorrow is right. There have been times I wished I believed there was something, and times I've been really glad to know that the deceased, or the bereaved, did believe. But there have been other times when I have been really upset hearing the 'he's in a better place' line. To me, that's a lot of crap, it's not true, and I'd rather not hear that kind of pap. The person is dead, it's sad. Let's celebrate his life, because that is what is real, and known. Don't candy coat the reality of the death. I certainly understand why most religions have some kind of afterlife, for exactly the reason you stated. It's comforting, and I get that. |
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| ivorythumper | Jul 23 2009, 06:53 PM Post #39 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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If so, it is hardly appropriate to wish "rest in peace". |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| sue | Jul 23 2009, 06:55 PM Post #40 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Let's hope the pubs aren't closing there. (I was going to say 'up there', but that may be a tad presumptuous, no?) |
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| Renauda | Jul 23 2009, 06:55 PM Post #41 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Ax, being that all that beer is flowing in the afterlfe would not "Pee in Peace" be more appropriate than *Rest in Peace*? |
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| Quagmire | Jul 23 2009, 07:07 PM Post #42 |
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Senior Carp
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But if there's sex too, then it should be "Pee in Piece". (I'm so sorry )(giggity) |
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| sue | Jul 23 2009, 07:26 PM Post #43 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That's sexist. And you're not sorry, you're giggling your head off.
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| Renauda | Jul 23 2009, 09:23 PM Post #44 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Sex? After all that beer? Doubt it. Let's get our celestial priorities staight. |
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| pianojerome | Jul 23 2009, 09:44 PM Post #45 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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But, I would guess that most atheists have never actually dug into the ground and sought out the fossil record; they just take it on faith that the scientists who tell them about it are correct. I'd guess that most atheists haven't actually run tests on the fossils to see how old they are; they just take it on faith that the scientists who told them how old the fossils are, are correct. I'd guess that most atheists will fly on an airplane without ever checking to be sure that the pilot has his license, without checking to make sure that the airplane is in proper functioning order, and without checking all of the passengers to be sure that nobody is carrying a weapon. Nevertheless, I'd guess that most atheists would get on the plane anyway - taking all of these things on total faith. (Even - believe it or not - those who have never flown before, and therefore are basing their faith not on past experience but on the testimony of others.) I'd guess that most atheists, when they're hungry, will go to the supermarket and buy a box of food - without actually seeing what's inside the box (taking on total faith that the label is correct), without actually going to the factory and overseeing the process of making the food (to make sure that health checks are in balance), and without test-tasting it first (taking on total faith that they'll like it). My point, if it isn't clear, is that most everything we do in life is based on total faith. I have never seen, personally, evidence that the American Civil War happened. I take it on total faith that my teachers, book authors, researchers, et al are correct when they say that it happened. I have never, personally, stepped foot on the moon, nor have I ever been in a space shuttle, nor did I witness any space shuttles ever taking off. Nevertheless, I take it on total faith that man has walked on the moon - because I take it on faith that my sources are correct. Does that mean that I am not reasonably sure that these events took place? Does that mean I can't reasonably sure that the plane will get me where I want to go safely, that the food I buy will be healthy and tasty, that the fossil record really is as old as scientists say it is? Surely, in all of these cases, I - and, I'd guess, most everyone else, too - have absolutely nothing to grasp on for personal evidence, except for the testimony of others and my subjective experiences. And yet, these are so commonly taken for granted - on faith - that I - and most others - never even question them. Should we question them all? Should we stop getting on airplanes, buying food, believing that the Civil War happened, until we have seen and judged for ourselves the proper evidence? Imagine if our teachers K-12 told us: don't believe anything you are taught in school; go and do the experiments and decide for yourself on everything. We'd never learn anything. We learn, because our teachers tell us. Later, we question certain things as we become specialized in our own areas, and if others in other specialized fields question other things, we choose -- without any reasonable credentials for ourselves -- to have faith (or not) that those specialists are correct. |
| Sam | |
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| Axtremus | Jul 23 2009, 09:57 PM Post #46 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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To address ivorythumper: There is no reason that just because there is eternal supply of good beer and great sex in the afterlife, that any one is precluded from resting, in peace or otherwise, in the afterlife. To address Renauda and Quagmire, It's not known whether one would need to pee at all in the afterlife, eternal supply of beer notwithstanding. So the priority discussion my be moot anyway.
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| Dewey | Jul 24 2009, 04:34 AM Post #47 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Excellent post, Sam. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| LWpianistin | Jul 24 2009, 06:08 AM Post #48 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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i don't think I'll see my grandfather again, or my uncle, or..well, so on. It's not that hard to accept. I still love and miss them but I will not see them again. I do have great memories of them though, so I can still "see" and "hear" them while I'm alive.
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| And how are you today? | |
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| Quagmire | Jul 24 2009, 06:58 AM Post #49 |
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Senior Carp
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Sam, these things are in fact NOT taken on total faith as you say. The science stuff (fossil record) is accepted because we understand the scientific process and have reasonable cause to accept the findings as presented in the literature. And even then, any critical thinker certainly does reserve the caveat that any particular scientific analysis may be wrong. It happens all the time, so one must be vigilant as to what science they accept. While certain findings, such as the fossil record, have been analyzed by the empirical scientific method by so many countless independent parties, that its very reasonable to accept it. Not faith at all. And again, even with all these independent confirmations, the critical thinker still understands that new evidence may eventually come to light that negates all these findings. Nothing is taken on faith here. We get on planes because we have experience getting on planes successfully. We know many people who have survived air travel. We see on the news that some planes crash. We know there is a certain risk that maybe our plane will. We accept that risk, due to probability statistics. Some people dont, and dont fly. No faith here at all. We buy a box of food based on the label because we've opened food packages all our lives and found whats inside to be consistent with whats on the label. Not faith. Once in a blue moon, there's an unfortunate surprise inside the box. We accept that risk, as our empirical experience tells us its highly unprobable, and the cost is just a few bucks anyway. As for food safety, same thing, we've been eating commercial food all our lives. Our empirical experience tells us we can eat commercial food safely. We know sometimes food is unsafe. We accept the risk on probability statistics. Some people dont accept the risk, and only eat what they grow or prepare themselves. No faith here at all. We accept the Civil War because its documented history. Our knowledge of how history is recorded, and how accurately during different eras, is known, so we have very good reason to accept it, keeping the caveat there may be errors of various magnitudes. We have artifacts from the civil war as evidence. No faith here at all. Some people do in fact disbelieve certain recorded histories, such as the holocaust deniers. But most accept it because it has been empirically demonstrated. No faith here at all. On the other hand, religious faith has none of the components mentioned above to entice a person to reasonably accept truths. In fact quite the opposite. Thru sociology, anthropology, psychology, we understand that mythology is a ubiquitous cultural phenomenon. We know what mythology is, where it comes from, why its there, how it gets there. We can look at any religiion and do a one-to-one mapping of components between that religion and mythology, both quantitatively and qualitatively. Therefore we have very reasonable cause to conclude that religion is just mythology. We have no reasonable cause to conclude the contrary. |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 24 2009, 07:03 AM Post #50 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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There have been a couple very interesting threads now on this subject, no flame wars. That's refreshing. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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6:49 AM Jul 11