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| The Henry Louis Gates Fiasco | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 23 2009, 05:06 AM (657 Views) | |
| QuirtEvans | Jul 23 2009, 05:06 AM Post #1 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I don't recall another thread about this mess yet. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/22/james-crowley-policeman-w_n_243262.html My take on it, after reading a bunch of stories (since it's close to local), is that they were both wrong. It seems to me that neither Gates nor the officer was willing to back down, and they both escalated it ... the officer, because he believed he was in charge and was owed deference, and Gates, because he thinks pretty highly of himself and didn't think he had to kiss anyone's ass in his own house. I don't think Obama should have taken a position that the cops acted stupidly, in a "he said, he said" situation. The interesting point to me is this one:
Is that really part of a police officer's job? Maybe it should be, but I don't think we, as a society, select people for the police force who naturally behave that way, and I don't think that most police officers are trained to behave that way. And, while it may not be against the law to yell at a police officer, it's generally not a particularly smart move. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 23 2009, 05:10 AM Post #2 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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My take as well. There are no heroes and no real villains here. Just two people who handled a situation poorly. It certainly does not merit presidential comment. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| QuantumIvory | Jul 23 2009, 05:53 AM Post #3 |
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Senior Carp
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Particularly when the president freely admits he doesn't know all the facts in the case and then proceeds to condemn the police department as acting "stupidly". |
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"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck | |
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| Dewey | Jul 23 2009, 06:28 AM Post #4 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Phlebas | Jul 23 2009, 07:34 AM Post #5 |
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Bull-Carp
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Obama really pulled a "Dinkins" on that one. Black guy on one side, cops on the other? Must be the cops fault. "I don't know the facts, but I condemn..." - GMAFB. My recollection of the Cambridge police, from having lived there, is they pretty much hate everyone - Harvard/MIT/Radcliffe students, academics like Gates, Cambridge granola types, feminists (in their mind, defined as any woman with the temerity to define their constitutional rights), Blacks, Portugese (which there's a large population of), Asians, etc., etc. Also, they're probably the least professional police department I've seen first hand. That aside, if you're stupid enough to talk back to the police, you just might end up arrested. Too bad Gates never learned that. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| The 89th Key | Jul 23 2009, 08:29 AM Post #6 |
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From the police report and the "yo mama!" remark......it sounds like Gates made this 10x worse on himself for not cooperating more. See more: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html ![]() ![]()
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 23 2009, 08:43 AM Post #7 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I surely hope there's evidence one way or the other as to whether this story is true. If true, Gates deserves a huge pile of public scorn. (Unfortunately, there's no realistic other sanction.) |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| lb1 | Jul 23 2009, 12:05 PM Post #8 |
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Fulla-Carp
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More information that paints Gates (and Obama) blacker. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly_50 lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| The 89th Key | Jul 23 2009, 12:13 PM Post #9 |
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Not looking good for Gates. I really dont see any arguments on his side. Even the photo of him being arrested shows him yelling and the arresting officer (seen on the right) holding his hand up presumably asking him to "calm down".
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| Kincaid | Jul 23 2009, 12:18 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I tend to support the officer but, if you are in the process of leaving and it is only your presence that is causing the problem, why not just leave rather than insisting on compliance? The officer's statement looks full of CYA and, as I interview people all the time and take notes when doing so and still have a hard time recalling exact phrasing of words and sequencing of responses, I would take his report with a grain of salt. Every police officer in America should have an audio recording device on their person that is always recording. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Horace | Jul 23 2009, 12:26 PM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It's a pretty tough sell for me to believe that it's ok to arrest someone because they're upset that they're being bothered by a cop for "breaking into" their own home. Even including a "yo mama" or two. Anyway, if we're discussing what is, in practice, stupid or not, in no case can this be thought of as stupidity from Gates. Like he said, "you haven't heard the last of this" and "you have no idea who you're dealing with". Well, the cops dropped the charges, the case is national news and all the PC police are righteous and energized, and the president of the united states weighed in on his side. That's not stupid, that's game set match. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Red Rice | Jul 23 2009, 12:52 PM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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My recollection too. They always seemed to be looking for a fight. MA State Troopers are also a mixed bag in my experience. Cops in my part of Wisconsin seem far more professional. |
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Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
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| Kincaid | Jul 23 2009, 12:53 PM Post #13 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Good point. I don't think Gates was trying to bait him at all, but that's what happened. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 23 2009, 01:00 PM Post #14 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Yeah, if it's a free app on the iPhone now, it can't be too hard to do. Just download at the station at the end of each shift. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 23 2009, 01:25 PM Post #15 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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It sounds to me like the officer received a call, investigated, and was met with open hostility from the word go. Sorry, but my vote goes to the officer on this one, assuming this report, which is all we have, is accurate. Cue Jesse and Al to show up any minute. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 23 2009, 01:45 PM Post #16 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I agree with that, Mik. However, it also sounds to me, like Kincaid said, that the report is a lot of butt-covering. I'm going to guess that Gates was predisposed to think that any cop who questioned him about anything was a racist, and that the cop was predisposed to punish anyone (regardless of skin color) who disrespected him. Which gets back to my original question ... is it really the cop's job to be the bigger person and to walk away? Is that part of the police function, when there really is no evidence of wrongdoing but the guy's being a dick? Oil. A lit match. It's never good when the two are put in close proximity. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Jul 23 2009, 01:51 PM Post #17 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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True, dat. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Free Rider | Jul 23 2009, 02:07 PM Post #18 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I learned a long time ago about authority and respect. Isn't there a song about that? I fought the Law and the Law won. Usually does. |
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| George K | Jul 23 2009, 02:26 PM Post #19 |
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Finally
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A couple of interesting perspectives. First of all, they picked on the wrong cop:
And a very interesting perspective from the (lily white) Wall Street Journal:
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| kluurs | Jul 23 2009, 04:28 PM Post #20 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I think the one thing that I haven't seen discussed is Gates frame of mind. He had just spent 20 minutes with a stuck door. I'm a pretty calm person - but when stuff "doesn't work" - and i get frustrated, it can change my frame of mind. Anyone entering the scene after a computer destroys something I've worked on for a few hours might think I was a a little "irrational." Heck, I've gotten pretty po'd at the writer of instructions on how to assemble a gas grill. I think Gates was probably a bit worked up from his battle with the freaking door. Having said that, one of our radio announcers here once said, when the police show up - no matter what one's frame of mind one should iimmediately go to "yes sir, no sir" mode - which is to say - show respect - if for no other reason than to make things go a bit more smoothly. Had Gates an ounce of sense, none of this would have happened. I think the door battle may have made him a bit ill-humored. AND maybe he too has a sense of what police are all about - profiling the officer as a facist. My father was one of those people who if the police were involved, he immediately saw red...he wasn't smart in those kinds of situations. The officer said that Gates wasn't acting rationally. If the policeman worked the Harvard community, he should have been used to non-rationale academics - people who are a bit goofy - even if smart. I suspect Gates did get into the officer's face - and I would not be surprised if he was insulting to the officer in addition to acting like a dufus. While I'm sometimes suspicious of police "stories" - I still suspect Gates was the cause of the problem - and not "racial profiling." I think Obama's comments were off the mark. |
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| Horace | Jul 23 2009, 06:41 PM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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And that's not the half of it, he was just back from a trip overseas, which means he was on a plane for half a day or more, and jetlagged. I'd have a quick temper at that point too. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| ivorythumper | Jul 23 2009, 06:42 PM Post #22 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I am just glad that President Obama is in office to comment on what is clearly a local matter. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | Jul 23 2009, 06:51 PM Post #23 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Obama screwed up on this one. |
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| Dewey | Jul 23 2009, 06:54 PM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yes. He didn't have the excuse of jet lag or a stuck door to fall back on to explain his stupid comment. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Kincaid | Jul 23 2009, 09:39 PM Post #25 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I know I've had days where I was leaving the office and thought that if by chance someone crossed me I would get positively Medieval. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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6:46 AM Jul 11