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Go Get 'Em, Senator Schumer!
Topic Started: Jul 21 2009, 02:03 PM (523 Views)
QuirtEvans
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/21/AR2009072102412.html?hpid=moreheadlines
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I applaud his stated desire. I hope they get the implentation right.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Mikhailoh
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I applaud the goal, but I hardly think so many illegals are working on forged documents. I think they are working on no documents whatsoever. I am skeptical of that level of personal identification for all Americans.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mikhailoh
Jul 21 2009, 02:20 PM
I applaud the goal, but I hardly think so many illegals are working on forged documents. I think they are working on no documents whatsoever. I am skeptical of that level of personal identification for all Americans.
I think this is more a case of making the cure so much worse than the disease that no one wants to pursue it. That much is evinced from Schumer's rhetoric:
Quote:
 
"The only way to stop illegal immigration is to stop employers from hiring illegal immigrants," Schumer said. He added, "We must . . . adopt a system that relies upon objective, rather than subjective, criteria to prove identity and legal status. The system must be non-forgeable and airtight."
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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Mikhailoh
Jul 21 2009, 02:20 PM
I applaud the goal, but I hardly think so many illegals are working on forged documents. I think they are working on no documents whatsoever. I am skeptical of that level of personal identification for all Americans.
Yeah, but employers always argue that they can't be charged with checking documentation, because the documentation isn't foolproof.

This would take away a typical argument as to why checking IDs can't possibly work.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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Drug dealers argue similar excuses. I suspect that if you have 20 illegals working in your shop, most of them have no documentation whatsoever rather than forged. The argument just doesn't hold water.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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Mikhailoh
Jul 21 2009, 02:41 PM
Drug dealers argue similar excuses. I suspect that if you have 20 illegals working in your shop, most of them have no documentation whatsoever rather than forged. The argument just doesn't hold water.
So then why do so many Republicans buy the argument? Because the Republican shills for the Chamber of Commerce repeat this argument all the time.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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Couldn't say. I don't buy it.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Just go with National ID card and be done with it.
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Larry
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We already have a national ID card. It's called a Social Security card. We also have a state ID card, good in all 50 states - called a Driver's License. Now you want a national ID card?

Why not just line us all up like sheep and make us have to produce a national ID card to buy gasoline, or food..... oh wait - that's where all that is going, isn't it?

F*ck you liberals.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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A Social Security card isn't an ID card. It contains no indicia to ensure that you are the person whose name is one the card. You know when I signed my Social Security card? When I was 10. You think my signature has changed much since then?

You want an ID card that ensures that you are who you say you are. Picture. Fingerprint. Positive indicia of identification.

Those who are strongly opposed to illegal immigration should understand that this is the ONLY way to ensure that illegal immigrants are not hired illegally.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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I have my fingerprint on my driver's license, much to my outrage. It has my picture on it too, much to everyone's outrage...... :D

We don't need a national ID card. It's a stepping stone issue climbing a staircase of the federal government stripping you of your freedom. There are smarter ways to solve the problems than yet another federal program.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Mikhailoh
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We already have everything we need in terms of laws. What we lack is enforcement. An ID won't help that. Just like documentation today it won't do a damn thing because those who want to avoid it will find ways to deal in cash and barter, etc.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Copper
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Mikhailoh
Jul 21 2009, 06:15 PM
We already have everything we need in terms of laws. What we lack is enforcement. An ID won't help that. Just like documentation today it won't do a damn thing because those who want to avoid it will find ways to deal in cash and barter, etc.

Why not eliminate enforcement?

We could just have everyone go to the police station once a month to see if the police want to arrest them.

What's the big deal? If you are innocent you have no reason not to go.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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QuirtEvans
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Larry
Jul 21 2009, 06:07 PM
I have my fingerprint on my driver's license, much to my outrage. It has my picture on it too, much to everyone's outrage...... :D

We don't need a national ID card. It's a stepping stone issue climbing a staircase of the federal government stripping you of your freedom. There are smarter ways to solve the problems than yet another federal program.

Wow, Tennessee is incredibly intrusive. In the People's Republic of Massachusetts, there are no fingerprints on the driver's license. Well, no visible ones. :)
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Jul 21 2009, 06:15 PM
We already have everything we need in terms of laws. What we lack is enforcement. An ID won't help that. Just like documentation today it won't do a damn thing because those who want to avoid it will find ways to deal in cash and barter, etc.
Different states issue different cards using different standards, and each state gets to change that standard on their own. How the heck do you expect to train personnel to effectively verify ID cards using 51 sets of standards, each of which can change independently of the others?

A national ID card is crucial to effective enforcement.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Wow, Tennessee is incredibly intrusive. In the People's Republic of Massachusetts, there are no fingerprints on the driver's license. Well, no visible ones.


I agree with you. It is incredibly intrusive.

But I'm thinking it may have been Georgia that made me do that instead of Tennessee..... :D
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
A national ID card is crucial to effective enforcement.


A national ID card isn't crucial to anything.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Mikhailoh
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It is interesting that the very folks who want us to 'talk to the world' and 'be more compassionate' also seek to slam the door shut on any chance these illegal immigrants have to earn a living for their families.

That is the other side of the coin. What is going to be the net effect on their home countries, most notably Latin America? Are we going to create a pressure cooker of resentment on our southern border?

I don't think Obama is going to support this. Not with all the cowtowing he is doing south of the border.

Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nor would it be particularly effective, since it wouldn't be "unforgeable."

I have no issue with the concept of a national ID card, but I have lots of problems with the actual practicality of it. And I have even greater concern over its potential misuse, just as the SS card has become misused after the government promised up and down that it "will never be used as an ID card" and now there's hell to pay any time you don't want to provide your SSN for practically any purpose under the sun.

It can't be unforgeable. Its use can creep to unacceptable levels because the government has no ability to control itself. I don't care how good it sounds on the surface, I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Jul 22 2009, 04:22 AM
It is interesting that the very folks who want us to 'talk to the world' and 'be more compassionate' also seek to slam the door shut on any chance these illegal immigrants have to earn a living for their families.

That is the other side of the coin. What is going to be the net effect on their home countries, most notably Latin America? Are we going to create a pressure cooker of resentment on our southern border?

I don't think Obama is going to support this. Not with all the cowtowing he is doing south of the border.

For all you know, the same folks also advocate for immigration reform and lowering the bar to get the bulk of illegal/undocumented aliens legalized/documented.

From my standpoint, I would rather we allow only "legal" aliens to work, and deport all the "illegal." If we need/want the labor and/or want to show compassion, it should done so by tuning the parameters to qualify/disqualify prospective immigrants.

Extracting labor from the illegals and yet continue to keep them at their "illegal" status is to put them under a consistently disadvantaged position -- this, I see as unfair and un-American.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Jul 22 2009, 04:28 AM
Nor would it be particularly effective, since it wouldn't be "unforgeable."

I have no issue with the concept of a national ID card, but I have lots of problems with the actual practicality of it. And I have even greater concern over its potential misuse, just as the SS card has become misused after the government promised up and down that it "will never be used as an ID card" and now there's hell to pay any time you don't want to provide your SSN for practically any purpose under the sun.

It can't be unforgeable. Its use can creep to unacceptable levels because the government has no ability to control itself. I don't care how good it sounds on the surface, I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it.
SSN and Social Security card are not good comparisons. Neither positively identifies the person who claims to own it. (Quirt made this point above.)

Right now, we have a problem where some one claims to own a SSN or show an SS card, and the regular employers and your your rank-and-file government employees have no good way to determine that the claim is false.

Using state-issued driver's license or ID document have the problem of each state using a different standard, and out-of-state employer/government employees have a hard time verifying documents from different states issued under different standards.

National ID goes a long way towards solving the two problems noted above.

National ID is not perfect, and there is no "unforgeable" document. But as the saying goes, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
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Mikhailoh
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But the problem, Ax, is that their solution here is to document ALL of us when the problem lies not with us nor really with the illegals but with the employers.

There are already documentation laws that are useless because only the law-abiding adhere to them. Start ratcheting up enforcement and stiffen the penalties. Nail some of the more egregious violating employers to the wall and word will get around. National ID will do absolutely nothing for that.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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Mikhailoh
Jul 22 2009, 05:50 AM
Start ratcheting up enforcement and stiffen the penalties. Nail some of the more egregious violating employers to the wall and word will get around. National ID will do absolutely nothing for that.
As I said above, the minute you start talking about ratching up enforcement, the Chamber of Commerce screams bloody murder. They claim that employers have no way of knowing who is legal and who isn't, and you're punishing them for doing something that they cannot reasonably do.

A national ID card would eliminate that argument against enforcement.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If they have the required documentation and it is valid or at least could reasonably be seen that way, great. But I'd bet most of them have nothing.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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