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Are you an atheist? I am, and so should you.; (be one that is)
Topic Started: Jul 15 2009, 07:59 PM (4,789 Views)
QuantumIvory
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Alrighty then...you can stick with your faith in the weak anthropic principle and I'll stick to my faith in the strong anthropic principle. :)
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck

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CrashTest
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I think most of those "smart" people that people say believe in god are in actuality not theists, but more likely deists. They believe god is in nature, the universe, but not the supernatural god. The vast majority of scientists and thinkers seem to not ascribe to even that, though. Very few would seem to believe the supernatural side.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

Alrighty then...you can stick with your faith in the weak anthropic principle and I'll stick to my faith in the strong anthropic principle. :)


No faith, just arguments.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Larry
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Not just me, Larry too. He considers the believe in manmade global warming a religion.


The "man made global warming" thing *does* have a god. It has a god, it has prophets, a creed, and organized meetings.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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Larry
Jul 17 2009, 10:11 AM
Quote:
 
Not just me, Larry too. He considers the believe in manmade global warming a religion.


The "man made global warming" thing *does* have a god. It has a god, it has prophets, a creed, and organized meetings.

What/who, do you believe, is the god of the "man made global warming" religion? :blink:
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Larry
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To quote Michael Crichton:
Today's environmentalism is a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths. There's an initial Eden, a paradise, a state of grace and unity with nature, there's a fall from grace into a state of pollution as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge, and as a result of our actions there is a judgment day coming for us all. We are all energy sinners, doomed to die, unless we seek salvation, which is now called sustainability. Sustainability is salvation in the church of the environment. Just as organic food is its communion, that pesticide-free wafer that the right people with the right beliefs, imbibe. Eden, the fall of man, the loss of grace, the coming doomsday---these are deeply held mythic structures.

Increasingly it seems facts aren't necessary, because the tenets of environmentalism are all about belief. It's about whether you are going to be a sinner, or saved. Whether you are going to be one of the people on the side of salvation, or on the side of doom. Whether you are going to be one of us, or one of them.

The Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics explains it this way:

The Religion of Environmentalism -- Pantheism.
Pantheism is an ancient religious outlook held explicitly (e.g., by many in the so called "animal rights" movement) or implicitly by many environmentalists today. The fact is that most modern environmentalists (as opposed to those who simply want to control harmful pollution, for example) have a religious world view to undergird their agenda. The most amenable religious outlook, whether environmentalists admit it or not or whether they even understand it completely or not, is pantheism.

Pantheism, in a nutshell, makes no distinction (or at most a very unclear distinction) between the Creator and the creature. According to pantheism, god is not transcendent. In practical terms, god is in all, and all is part of god. Because the entire creation and god are one, there is a close relation to animism. Animals, trees, flowers, insects, and human beings are all part of god, and god is "in" all of them. A consistent pantheist (and it is doubtful there are or can be very many) would hold that plants and animals are, in a sense, simultaneously our "brothers" and god. To harm them in any way is to harm our kinsmen -- creation and god.

Pantheism deifies and idolizes nature and at the same time leads to a departure from reality and a withdrawal from any meaningful tasks in subduing the created world for God and the material benefit of man. Economic and technological progress halt. This is not an academic exercise. Literally millions of people throughout the world, rejecting Christianity and its view of man, creation, and God, either partially or completely accept the idolatry of pantheism. They adopt an agenda and a vocabulary (e.g., "appropriate technology", "small is beautiful", "soft energy path", etc.). They manifest their religion through such "good works" as guarding animal rights, stopping the deterioration of the ozone layer, saving the whale, eliminating pesticides, or in a more all-encompassing way, saving "spaceship earth." In short, pantheism confuses the creation and its Creator and deifies the creation by locating God in the creation as well as locating the creation in God. Thus, pantheism idolizes nature and provides a consistent religious base for environmentalism. Since men will force their observations and "data" to conform to their religious world view, we must briefly examine the false "science" undergirding environmentalism (or we should say serving the environmentalist idol).
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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Larry
Jul 17 2009, 10:33 AM
To quote Michael Crichton:
Today's environmentalism is a perfect 21st century remapping of traditional Judeo-Christian beliefs and myths. There's an initial Eden, a paradise, a state of grace and unity with nature, there's a fall from grace into a state of pollution as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge, and as a result of our actions there is a judgment day coming for us all. We are all energy sinners, doomed to die, unless we seek salvation, which is now called sustainability. Sustainability is salvation in the church of the environment. Just as organic food is its communion, that pesticide-free wafer that the right people with the right beliefs, imbibe. Eden, the fall of man, the loss of grace, the coming doomsday---these are deeply held mythic structures.

Increasingly it seems facts aren't necessary, because the tenets of environmentalism are all about belief. It's about whether you are going to be a sinner, or saved. Whether you are going to be one of the people on the side of salvation, or on the side of doom. Whether you are going to be one of us, or one of them.

The Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics explains it this way:

The Religion of Environmentalism -- Pantheism.
Pantheism is an ancient religious outlook held explicitly (e.g., by many in the so called "animal rights" movement) or implicitly by many environmentalists today. The fact is that most modern environmentalists (as opposed to those who simply want to control harmful pollution, for example) have a religious world view to undergird their agenda. The most amenable religious outlook, whether environmentalists admit it or not or whether they even understand it completely or not, is pantheism.

Pantheism, in a nutshell, makes no distinction (or at most a very unclear distinction) between the Creator and the creature. According to pantheism, god is not transcendent. In practical terms, god is in all, and all is part of god. Because the entire creation and god are one, there is a close relation to animism. Animals, trees, flowers, insects, and human beings are all part of god, and god is "in" all of them. A consistent pantheist (and it is doubtful there are or can be very many) would hold that plants and animals are, in a sense, simultaneously our "brothers" and god. To harm them in any way is to harm our kinsmen -- creation and god.

Pantheism deifies and idolizes nature and at the same time leads to a departure from reality and a withdrawal from any meaningful tasks in subduing the created world for God and the material benefit of man. Economic and technological progress halt. This is not an academic exercise. Literally millions of people throughout the world, rejecting Christianity and its view of man, creation, and God, either partially or completely accept the idolatry of pantheism. They adopt an agenda and a vocabulary (e.g., "appropriate technology", "small is beautiful", "soft energy path", etc.). They manifest their religion through such "good works" as guarding animal rights, stopping the deterioration of the ozone layer, saving the whale, eliminating pesticides, or in a more all-encompassing way, saving "spaceship earth." In short, pantheism confuses the creation and its Creator and deifies the creation by locating God in the creation as well as locating the creation in God. Thus, pantheism idolizes nature and provides a consistent religious base for environmentalism. Since men will force their observations and "data" to conform to their religious world view, we must briefly examine the false "science" undergirding environmentalism (or we should say serving the environmentalist idol).
Don't see Crichton identifies the god of the "man made global warming" religion anywhere in that article.

So who or what do you believe is the god of the "man made global warming" religion again? :confused:
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Moonbat
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Pantheism ftw (without weird monotheist juxtopositions)
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Larry
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Quote:
 
Don't see Crichton identifies the god of the "man made global warming" religion anywhere in that article.


Of course you don't, Ax. I never expected that you would.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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Larry
Jul 17 2009, 11:11 AM
Quote:
 
Don't see Crichton identifies the god of the "man made global warming" religion anywhere in that article.


Of course you don't, Ax. I never expected that you would.
So who or what do you believe is the god of the "man made global warming" religion again? :confused:

You claimed that the "man made global warming" religion has a god -- who or what, do you believe, is that god?
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ivorythumper
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Hey Ax, before you continue grilling Larry about his use of the term "religion" related to global warming (which seems to be obvious to the casual observer that its an analogous use of term since there is no sort of liturgy but there are doctrines of faith) -- how about getting back to me on the point about animal sacrifice in Hinduism and carnivorous Buddhist monks?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Larry
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Axtremus
Jul 17 2009, 11:13 AM
Larry
Jul 17 2009, 11:11 AM
Quote:
 
Don't see Crichton identifies the god of the "man made global warming" religion anywhere in that article.


Of course you don't, Ax. I never expected that you would.
So who or what do you believe is the god of the "man made global warming" religion again? :confused:

You claimed that the "man made global warming" religion has a god -- who or what, do you believe, is that god?
I just told you. You said you weren't able to see it. I responded by telling you I never expected you would, anyway. Me telling you again isn't going to make you see it, because the problem isn't in my explanation but in your ability to comprehend it.

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Larry
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ivorythumper
Jul 17 2009, 11:15 AM
Hey Ax, before you continue grilling Larry about his use of the term "religion" related to global warming (which seems to be obvious to the casual observer that its an analogous use of term since there is no sort of liturgy but there are doctrines of faith) -- how about getting back to me on the point about animal sacrifice in Hinduism and carnivorous Buddhist monks?
It's not an analogy at all. One doesn't have to have a liturgy to have a religion.
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Moonbat
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Hey Larry, do you mean religion as an analogy or as in an actual religion?

Edit: Ah i see you answered above already.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Axtremus
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ivorythumper
Jul 17 2009, 11:15 AM
Hey Ax, before you continue grilling Larry about his use of the term "religion" related to global warming (which seems to be obvious to the casual observer that its an analogous use of term since there is no sort of liturgy but there are doctrines of faith) -- how about getting back to me on the point about animal sacrifice in Hinduism and carnivorous Buddhist monks?
Oh... meant to reply to that one...

Animal sacrifice is uncommon among followers of Hinduism. And followers of Hinduism occasionally sacrifice human as well. Human sacrifice was largely banned by the British when they colonized India. Animal sacrifice in temples was largely banned by the Indian government 40+ years after independence. If you go by the scripture, what's commonly translated into "sacrifice" really means "offering", and "offerings" usually comprised of grains and flowers and wood and such. I've seen many Hindu religious celebrations/rituals up close, and I can honestly say that I have never seen meat offering or animal sacrifice practiced in any of these rituals.

Buddhist monk eating meat - a very small minority of Buddhist monks do that, and even this minority do not kill -- they eat the carcasses of animal already dead (presumably killed by others), but they do not kill the animals themselves. Feel free to label them hypocrites if you like, but they seem comfortable with that distinction.

(Just curious... you don't really think of yourself as a "cow killer" when you wear a leather belt or put on a pair of leather shoes, or think of yourself as a "fish killer" when you enjoy a tuna sandwich, do you?)
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Axtremus
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Larry
Jul 17 2009, 11:18 AM
Axtremus
Jul 17 2009, 11:13 AM
Larry
Jul 17 2009, 11:11 AM
Quote:
 
Don't see Crichton identifies the god of the "man made global warming" religion anywhere in that article.


Of course you don't, Ax. I never expected that you would.
So who or what do you believe is the god of the "man made global warming" religion again? :confused:

You claimed that the "man made global warming" religion has a god -- who or what, do you believe, is that god?
I just told you. You said you weren't able to see it. I responded by telling you I never expected you would, anyway. Me telling you again isn't going to make you see it, because the problem isn't in my explanation but in your ability to comprehend it.

No you haven't. You quoted something written by Michael Crichton which does not identify the god of he "man made global warming" religion, and you yourself have not identified the god of the "man made global warming" religion (your characterization).

By the looks of it, you don't know who or what that god is either. Else you could have given a straight answer to a straight question rather than quoting an verbose article that doesn't answer the question at all.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
No you haven't. You quoted something written by Michael Crichton which does not identify the god of he "man made global warming" religion, and you yourself have not identified the god of the "man made global warming" religion (your characterization).


Yes I did. It's right there in front of you, dumbass. Read.

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Axtremus
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Larry
Jul 17 2009, 11:57 AM
Quote:
 
No you haven't. You quoted something written by Michael Crichton which does not identify the god of he "man made global warming" religion, and you yourself have not identified the god of the "man made global warming" religion (your characterization).


Yes I did. It's right there in front of you, dumbass. Read.

No you didn't. If you know the answer, you could have just say it, moron.

Quote:
 
By the looks of it, you don't know who or what that god is either. Else you could have given a straight answer to a straight question rather than quoting an verbose article that doesn't answer the question at all.
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Moonbat
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Hey Ivory, could you explain why religions require a liturgy?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Larry
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No you didn't. If you know the answer, you could have just say it, moron.


I did. You aren't able to find it. That's your problem, not mine. The answer is so obvious it slaps you down when you read what I wrote. I'm not repeating myself just because you aren't able to comprehend it.

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Dewey
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I think most of those "smart" people that people say believe in god are in actuality not theists, but more likely deists. They believe god is in nature, the universe, but not the supernatural god.


What you have described is not Deism.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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CrashTest
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Dewey - Deists just believe that something created the universe but does not intervene in human affairs right? So that would mean god created nature and can be seen only through studying nature and the universe, but is not himself a part of human interaction.

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Jul 17 2009, 11:33 AM
ivorythumper
Jul 17 2009, 11:15 AM
Hey Ax, before you continue grilling Larry about his use of the term "religion" related to global warming (which seems to be obvious to the casual observer that its an analogous use of term since there is no sort of liturgy but there are doctrines of faith) -- how about getting back to me on the point about animal sacrifice in Hinduism and carnivorous Buddhist monks?
Oh... meant to reply to that one...

Animal sacrifice is uncommon among followers of Hinduism. And followers of Hinduism occasionally sacrifice human as well. Human sacrifice was largely banned by the British when they colonized India. Animal sacrifice in temples was largely banned by the Indian government 40+ years after independence. If you go by the scripture, what's commonly translated into "sacrifice" really means "offering", and "offerings" usually comprised of grains and flowers and wood and such. I've seen many Hindu religious celebrations/rituals up close, and I can honestly say that I have never seen meat offering or animal sacrifice practiced in any of these rituals.
If that were the case, then why would it be such a regular topic on hindu blogs and even India's national paper The Hindu. Google <animal sacrifice in Hinduism> gets 144,000 hits -- seems to be a bigger issue than you are aware of -- even a country of a billion Hindus.
Quote:
 

(Just curious... you don't really think of yourself as a "cow killer" when you wear a leather belt or put on a pair of leather shoes, or think of yourself as a "fish killer" when you enjoy a tuna sandwich, do you?)
No I don't. Even if I slaughtered animals for a living or fished I wouldn't consider myself a cow/ or fish killer. I think the idea of not killing an animal because it might be someone's reincarnated grandmother is a strange idea, and while people are of course free to do what they will as long as they are not harming innocent humans I don't think that not killing animals gives anyone a shred of moral high ground.

And I had some pretty tasty lamb korma and mutton ishtew in India -- how do they get that without slaughtering (which would imply less than equal respect for sentient animals)?

Likewise, how is it that India has such a massive leather industry if Hindus and Buddhists consider sentient creatures on the same moral plane as humans? I never really got a straight answer from anyone when I was in India, but obviously they use all sorts of animal products and slaughter animals regularly for commercial purposes. I have no problem with them doing so, unless of course people try to make moralistic arguments about the purported superiority of these religions with claims about how all sentient life is valued when it clearly isn't.


The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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Now with this post, Crashtest, you've gotten inside the ballpark, but you're still outside the foul lines.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
(dup - gotta stop trying to post while driving...)
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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