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Are you an atheist? I am, and so should you.; (be one that is)
Topic Started: Jul 15 2009, 07:59 PM (4,791 Views)
Moonbat
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Faith in something bigger and better than the existence we all experience is a different matter though. Weather that faith is in unprovable scientific theories such as branes, strings, alternate / parallel universes or the unprovable existence of God matters not.


I'd agree with that - faith is a bad idea regardless of what it's in. I'd oppose faith that there is no God, that's just as bad as faith there is one. Faith itself is what is bunk not whatever conclusion it is applied to.

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I choose to believe in God. I could also choose not to believe in God. I did for many many years. It was not as pleasant an existence for me or the people close to me as it is now because I threw off my belief that this is all there is and nothing really matters. It is basically how I felt about life. I feel that way no longer.


I'm glad you feel better and i'm sorry you didn't find a perspective that helped you without losing err.. but anyway what you are saying is totally crazy! You can't choose what you believe! Consider whether or not you can choose to believe whether the Earth is flat or round, or whether the solar system has two suns or one or whether HIV causes AIDS or whether prayer can cure or not. You can choose to say the words "I believe that HIV causes AIDS" or "I believe evil spells cast by witch doctors causes AIDS" but if you can choose what you think is likely to be true then it means you're choosing whether or not to ignore what the world is telling you.

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There is no proof one way or the other. To believe there is proof for the nonexistence of God is to be as ignorant as those who believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old.


Sure there is no proof but proof is a non-starter, there's no proof there are not invisible unicorns on Mars the key point though is that there is no reason to think there are. So rather than asking whether there is any proof that god doesn't exist the question should be is there is any reason to think he/she/it/they does/do.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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sue
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Mark
Jul 16 2009, 02:15 PM
I want to exist after my human death. I want there to be another dimension that we simply cannot even imagine in this human form.

I want, therefore I believe.

that's honest, and clear.

I accept that I will not exist after my human death; that's it, my time will be done.
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Moonbat
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George K
Jul 16 2009, 04:04 PM
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 04:02 PM
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Heisenberg
Schrodinger
And on...and on...

What are Schrodinger and Heisenberg doing on that list?
I'm not sure.
Actually Heisenberg is not so clear (through Schrodinger definitely shouldn't be there) Heisenberg is referred to here with:

Quote:
 

When he was fifty-five, Heisenberg gave the Gifford lectures at St. Andrews on "Physics and Philosophy." He himself was religious, a member of the Evangelische Kirche (Lutheran and Calvinistic mixture), which his family had traditionally attended. As he once wrote me, he obviously did not subscribe to all the tenets of his grandparents. Nevertheless, he and his wife educated their children "definitely along the lines of the Christian religion." He was once asked by Pauli if he believed in a personal God. This was his reply: "Can you, or anyone else, reach the central order of things, or events, whose existence seems beyond doubt, as directly as you can reach the soul of another human being? I am using the term 'soul' quite deliberately so as not to be misunderstood. If you would put the question like that, the answer is yes."


Which is clear as mud but I guess implies atleast some kind of nominal religious sentiment.
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George K
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Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 04:38 PM
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What are Schrodinger and Heisenberg doing on that list?
I'm not sure.
It was a (bad) joke on the cat and the uncertainty principle.

Oh, well...

:leaving:


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Mark
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but if you can choose what you think is likely to be true then it means you're choosing whether or not to ignore what the world is telling you.


What exactly is the world telling me?
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Moonbat
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I don't know what observations you think supports the conclusions you have, but I assume you have some observations. (though I think under critical analysis one would see that the observations do not infact constitute much by way of evidence).

The point was only that you shouldn't choose what to believe, you should simply examine the world and think about what's likely and what's not and why.
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Moonbat
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It was a (bad) joke on the cat and the uncertainty principle.

Oh, well...

:leaving:


haha I see...

or do I?
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Mark
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Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 04:59 PM
The point was only that you shouldn't choose what to believe, you should simply examine the world and think about what's likely and what's not and why.


You choose what to believe. By what you see and hear and touch and calculate.

And I do too.
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Moonbat
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What i see and hear and touch and calculate determines what i believe - I do not have the power to choose what i think is likely to be true and what i think is likely to be false.

When i see a plane landing i don't choose to believe a plane is landing i just notice it and (assuming i'm not in the cinema) believe it. I don't have the power to choose not to believe a plane is landing. Only mad people can choose what they believe, the sane are necessarily constrained by empirical reality.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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CrashTest
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I really would like there to be a god. It makes things kind of exciting knowing there is some higher power playing with us.

But...I'm not saying there is a lack of evidence for the existence of god, which there is - but I am also saying more - what many people use to prove there has to be an intelligent creator (Life being born, complexity, etc) is ample proof of how the laws of nature work and have developed -which explains how we reached this advanced state of being, at least to us.

The cultural and sociological impact of religion on the human psyche cannot be underestimated. It is powerful and keeps otherwise intelligent people from reaching otherwise logical conclusions. Indoctrination is strong.

Mark, can you share with us your experience in terms of what brought you back to believing in god? I am curious what made you realize this.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
George K
Jul 16 2009, 04:44 PM
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 04:38 PM
Quote:
 
What are Schrodinger and Heisenberg doing on that list?
I'm not sure.
It was a (bad) joke on the cat and the uncertainty principle.

Oh, well...

:leaving:


I got it - I just didn't want to encourage you to do any more.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Dupe
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 05:11 PM
What i see and hear and touch and calculate determines what i believe - I do not have the power to choose what i think is likely to be true and what i think is likely to be false.

When i see a plane landing i don't choose to believe a plane is landing i just notice it and (assuming i'm not in the cinema) believe it. I don't have the power to choose not to believe a plane is landing. Only mad people can choose what they believe, the sane are necessarily constrained by empirical reality.
Now see, you're just incapable of being a wingnut.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
George K
Jul 16 2009, 04:44 PM
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 04:38 PM
Quote:
 
What are Schrodinger and Heisenberg doing on that list?
I'm not sure.
It was a (bad) joke on the cat and the uncertainty principle.

Oh, well...

:leaving:


I did get the joke the first time, and thought it was brilliant.

Too bad you had to explain it. :D
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
sue
Jul 16 2009, 04:34 PM
Mark
Jul 16 2009, 02:15 PM
I want to exist after my human death. I want there to be another dimension that we simply cannot even imagine in this human form.

I want, therefore I believe.

that's honest, and clear.

I accept that I will not exist after my human death; that's it, my time will be done.
No no no... there's infinite supply of good beer and great sex in the afterlife. :cheers:
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 03:46 PM
Your perfect murder is like a giant double slit experiment, ...
Brilliant analysis! I would probably never think of "perfect murder" that way if no ones points out to me its parallel to the classic double slit experiment. Brilliant! :thumb:
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QuantumIvory
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Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 04:02 PM
Quote:
 

Heisenberg
Schrodinger
And on...and on...


What are Schrodinger and Heisenberg doing on that list? And there is no on and on, in the 20th century the uber scientists are overwhelmingly areligious.
Schrodinger clearly believed in God.

How about these 20th century Nobel Laureates who also believe(d) in God?

Robert Millikan

Charles Townes

Arthur Schawlow

William Phillips

William Bragg

Guglielmo Marconi

Arthur Compton

Arno Penzias

Nevill Mott

Isidor Isaac Rabi

Abdus Salam

Antony Hewish

Joseph H. Taylor, Jr.

And these are just the physicists.

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
CrashTest
Jul 16 2009, 08:33 AM
But perhaps it isn't just chaos and randomness - I think it happened in a more logical way, a series of steps. For example, chaos could not produce us as we currently are - but it could produce something very simple, that could in turn develop into something more complex through time, natural selection, etc.

So we can't view the big picture when talking about where we stand now - but the small elements that started and created this. Remember, the universe is completely governed by very tangible laws - everything is building blocks and constantly changing.
But that would require an intelligent designer, so you've just told me you believe in God. You can't have it both ways - either it was random, or it wasn't.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
QuantumIvory
Jul 16 2009, 06:51 PM
How about these 20th century Nobel Laureates who also believe(d) in God?

[snip]
How many of these people believed in global warming, abortion and/or gay marriage?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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I suspect the arguments in those books don't actually work -



One thing I've always found amusing about the "intellectually enlightened atheist" types who so quickly and frequently deride those who believe in God for being "closed minded" is their near perfect track record for dismissing out of hand any evidence presented that might contradict their views before they've even examined it.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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(They can't possibly be worse than Alistair McGrath)



Are you referring to the Alistair McGrath who leaves your god Dawkins in the dirt every single time they debate?

hahahaha
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 09:49 AM
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One question about the "Big Bang". What blew up? Anyone?


The entire universe blew up.
What universe? There wasn't one prior to the big bang.

And if you try to argue there was, please tell us where whatever matter and/or energy you think was there to blow up came from.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 10:07 AM
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Any idea what was in that Universe? People, beings, God, Gods?


Same stuff that's in it now - particles.
Where did the particles come from? The existence of particles means the existence of motion, which means the existence of space, which means the existence of time, and energy. Where did they come from?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Horace
Jul 16 2009, 10:27 AM
Klaus
Jul 16 2009, 10:21 AM
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 10:07 AM
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Any idea what was in that Universe? People, beings, God, Gods?


Same stuff that's in it now - particles.
The more interesting question (at least to me) is: What caused the Big Bang?
The particles that would, eventually, be Larry, brushed up against the particles that would, eventually, be Kathy.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!


I can tell you as a stone cold fact that if any Larry particles EVER brushed up against any Kathy particles, the question of where black holes come from would be answered.....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I'm still waiting for a satisfactory answer regarding Mr. Simmons' existence. Is it true that he's the brother of Gene?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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