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Are you an atheist? I am, and so should you.; (be one that is)
Topic Started: Jul 15 2009, 07:59 PM (4,793 Views)
Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
We are dust.

We came from dust and to dust we will return.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Sure, scientific knowledge advances.
I'm fully support that, and find it important and fascinating.

Religions answers to these as yet unanswerable questions . . . uhm . . . I'll pass.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Jul 16 2009, 10:57 AM
We are dust.

We came from dust and to dust we will return.
Why not say "particles" rather than "dust"? Sounds much nicer :lol2:
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Jul 16 2009, 10:57 AM
We are dust.

We came from dust and to dust we will return.
I agree.

Still, I dust my house.

Perhaps our discomfort with our origin and destination explains our aversions to dust.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

Why not say "particles" rather than "dust"? Sounds much nicer :lol2:


Particles don't behave like dust.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Can particles get through my 100% 16-ounce real wool string cover?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jul 16 2009, 11:00 AM
Perhaps our discomfort with our origin and destination explains our aversions to dust.
Dust bunnies can be cute.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuantumIvory, if you appreciate reading theology through the eyes of a physicist, you cannot miss reading John Polkinghorne. For starters, I'd suggest this, which I have read and enjoyed thoroughly, or this, which I haven't but which looks very good.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Quagmire
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Senior Carp
kenny
Jul 16 2009, 10:59 AM
Sure, scientific knowledge advances.
I'm fully support that, and find it important and fascinating.

Religions answers to these as yet unanswerable questions . . . uhm . . . I'll pass.
Reminds me of when Richard Dawkins was on O'Reilly, which was a ludicrous interview to begin with. But later, O'Reilly claimed to have beaten Dawkins in the creation vs evolution debate, because Dawkins couldnt answer where everything came from initially, but Bill could by holding up the bible. ergo, he won the debate. :lol2: :no:

how can you even discuss ideas with someone who cant even grasp the logic of why thats not winning? :shrug:
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
OMH :hair: Dewey just posted a 1\2 inch post in a religious thread. Posted Image :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Klaus
Jul 16 2009, 11:00 AM
Mark
Jul 16 2009, 10:57 AM
We are dust.

We came from dust and to dust we will return.
Why not say "particles" rather than "dust"? Sounds much nicer :lol2:
'Cause he's spot-on.

If you go forward instead of backward, most of the dust you find in your household is, yep, dead skin.

We are dust. Dust is us. :P
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Dust is us.
Sounds like a chain store that sells cleaning supplies.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

Why are you saying it is meaningless? It is maybe unknowable in that it cannot be determined by scientific means, but I'd say that this does not render it meaningless.


I said only that it may be meaningless e.g. if the big bang is the beginning of time then the question is meaningless. It is just that there is no requirement that the quesiton means something.

Quote:
 

For example, somebody might have committed the "perfect murder", such that there are no traces whatsoever, but this does not render the question "who is the murderer?" meaningless.


Nature forbids a perfect murder if you imagine a universe where it doesn't then you are decoupling the depence of the present on the past and the very notion of past stops meaning what we normally think it means it would allow for instance a multiverse interpretation of the past within which the question as you intend it would indeed stop meaning anything.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 11:17 AM
Nature forbids a perfect murder if you imagine a universe where it doesn't then you are decoupling the depence of the present on the past and the very notion of past stops meaning what we normally think it means it would allow for instance a multiverse interpretation of the past within which the question as you intend it would indeed stop meaning anything.
But couldn't there be multiple possible pasts that lead to the same present?

For example, in state transition systems and process calculi it is quite common to have the situation that several different states have overlapping successor states. Why should the world be different?

I recall you once speculated about the possibility that all past states are somehow included in the present state, but I assume that this is a theory that has not yet been proven, right?
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 11:17 AM
Nature forbids a perfect murder if you imagine a universe where it doesn't then you are decoupling the depence of the present on the past and the very notion of past stops meaning what we normally think it means it would allow for instance a multiverse interpretation of the past within which the question as you intend it would indeed stop meaning anything.
Let's play a game:

Use an emoticon to reply to Moonbat's sentence.

Here's mine: :shrug:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mark
Jul 16 2009, 10:57 AM
We are dust.

We came from dust and to dust we will return.
Well then, somebody's either coming or going on top of my bookcase.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
We are dust.

Posted Image
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
:sing: Well, I came upon a child of God
He was walking along the road
And I asked him, 'Tell where are you going?'
This he told me
Said, 'Iım going down to Yasgur's Farm,
Gonna join in a rock and roll band.
Got to get back to the land and set my soul free.'
We are stardust, we are golden,
We are billion year old carbon,
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
'Well, then can I walk beside you?
I have come to lose the smog,
And I feel like I'm a cog in something turning.
And maybe it's the time of year,
Yes and maybe it's the time of man.
And I don't know who I am,
But life is for learning.'
We are stardust, we are golden,
We are billion year old carbon.
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
We are stardust, we are golden,
We are billion year old carbon.
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
By the time we got to Woodstock,
We were half a million strong
And everywhere was a song and a celebration.
And I dreamed I saw the bomber death planes
Riding shotgun in the sky,
Turning into butterflies
Above our nation.
We are stardust, we are golden,
We caught in the devilıs bargain,
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden :sing:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Jul 16 2009, 11:26 AM
Moonbat
Jul 16 2009, 11:17 AM
Nature forbids a perfect murder if you imagine a universe where it doesn't then you are decoupling the depence of the present on the past and the very notion of past stops meaning what we normally think it means it would allow for instance a multiverse interpretation of the past within which the question as you intend it would indeed stop meaning anything.
Let's play a game:

Use an emoticon to reply to Moonbat's sentence.

Here's mine: :shrug:
Posted Image
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
:lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
See two four posts up! :lol:
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

But couldn't there be multiple possible pasts that lead to the same present?

For example, in state transition systems it is quite common to have the situation that several different states have overlapping successor states. Why should the world be different?


It's not the world should or should not be different it's that, as far as i understand it, according to our best physical theories the world is.

Quote:
 

I recall you once speculated about the possibility that all past states are somehow included in the present state, but I assume that this is a theory that has not yet been proven, right?


My understanding is that it's implicit in the laws. The Hamiltonian is unitary both in classical (and relativistic) and in quantum mechanics.

Note that as i said before if that were not true, then your question might not mean anything depending on what it would mean (if for instance all these possible past states were equally real then asking which one was real wouldn't make sense).
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Jul 16 2009, 10:57 AM
We are dust.

We came from dust and to dust we will return.
I came upon a child of god
He was walking along the road
And I asked him, where are you going
And this he told me
Im going on down to yasgurs farm
Im going to join in a rock n roll band
Im going to camp out on the land
Im going to try an get my soul free
We are stardust
We are golden
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Then can I walk beside you
I have come here to lose the smog
And I feel to be a cog in something turning
Well maybe it is just the time of year
Or maybe its the time of man
I dont know who l am
But you know life is for learning
We are stardust
We are golden
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

By the time we got to woodstock
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and celebration
And I dreamed I saw the bombers
Riding shotgun in the sky
And they were turning into butterflies
Above our nation
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devils bargain
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden


~Joni Mitchell: Woodstock


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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Jul 16 2009, 11:27 AM
We are dust.

Posted Image
wow.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I came upon a child of god
He was walking along the road
And I asked him, where are you going
And this he told me
Im going on down to yasgurs farm
Im going to join in a rock n roll band
Im going to camp out on the land
Im going to try an get my soul free
We are stardust
We are golden
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Then can I walk beside you
I have come here to lose the smog
And I feel to be a cog in something turning
Well maybe it is just the time of year
Or maybe its the time of man
I dont know who l am
But you know life is for learning
We are stardust
We are golden
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

By the time we got to woodstock
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and celebration
And I dreamed I saw the bombers
Riding shotgun in the sky
And they were turning into butterflies
Above our nation
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devils bargain
And weve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden
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