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Are you an atheist? I am, and so should you.; (be one that is)
Topic Started: Jul 15 2009, 07:59 PM (4,784 Views)
CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
I am not a theist - that would preclude I believe in the supernatural. I am not a deist, that assumes I believe in an non-intervening creator. Agnosticism; no thanks.

I am an atheist. Does that word bring a shiver up your spine? It shouldn't. Now, if I said that BMW is rubbish compared to Mercedes, people would not take offense to that. But if I said that your religion is rubbish compared to atheism, I figure you'd have a little more indignation towards that. Why this elevated respect for the holy?

I do realize it is terribly difficult for religious people to forgo their belief, or even the idea of a lack of God - but the evidence is exemplary and ever surmounting against such a claim.

In fact, I feel religion is ridiculous. No other word for it. It is primitive, outdated, and downright delusional. Certain moral teachings associated with religion can be helpful - but are often dangerous and taken out of context, so if they were secularized in a more tidily fashion we would be all of the better for it.

There is no evidence of a god. In fact, all of the evidence in our universe points to the real answer: "Nature" is autonomous, self sustaining, and does not need an intelligent designer behind it. Nature is marvelous, the laws and rules that govern our universe are indeed complex and effective - but the buck stops there. Is it so hard to believe that we are a mere player in this massive system and collection of laws? Why do we need "spiritual" significance? We don't.

I am not attacking religion necessarily - much in the way that an explorer did not attack someone for believing the world was flat by showing it wasn't. If I ever see any plausible evidence of god, I will gladly change my mind - but there is nothing. Absolutely nothing. The only thing that I hear as a response is "I feel god", "I know god". Really? No you don't. What you feel is not god, I guarantee it. Examine religious and human history carefully. Examine human tendency and psychology, and you will see the role that religion plays in humanity. This role in humanity does not make it true. Us wanting it to be true, certainly does not do so.

I invite anyone - religious or not, to shed some light on these views if they feel otherwise, I welcome it. The universe is both complex and simple at the same time - it uses building blocks and steps to achieve it's next destination, regardless of how micro or macro that may be.
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apple
one of the angels
you can't guarantee
it behooves me to behold
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Well, you've argued the other side of this coin in the past, so it's pretty obvious that you have no core principles at all, and are just starting another thread designed to draw attention to yourself, like you did when you started threads telling us about your belief in God.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
In my current evolutionary stage of thinking, this is where I now stand. I did once believe in god, before I thought about it.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Crash you can believe or not believe whatever you want, but your beliefs only apply to you.

That goes for everyone.

The perspective that one's beliefs, even atheism, applies to others is problematic.
Groups of people agree on beliefs and that's groovy; but still those only apply to that group.
All 99-zillion groups are groovy until they start thinking their beliefs apply to people outside their group.
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
kenny, I disagree. Religion is blatantly incorrect, and is a detriment to human advancement. If it was just morals and fables, no problem - but people take it much too seriously.

Would you say the same to those who thought the world was flat? Let them believe it, right?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
CrashTest
Jul 15 2009, 08:39 PM
kenny, I disagree. Religion is blatantly incorrect, and is a detriment to human advancement. If it was just morals and fables, no problem - but people take it much too seriously.

Would you say the same to those who thought the world was flat? Let them believe it, right?
Sure, let people believe the world is flat, OJ was innocent, homosexuals are evil, there was no Holocaust or there was a virgin birth.

I don't care what others believe, or what they do not believe.
I DO care that they don't break laws or attempt to insert their beliefs into laws that affect people outside their group.
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
:uparrow: :yes:
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson

My Flickr Photostream


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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't think it's realistic to care only about laws and not beliefs. Laws are just beliefs that enough people subscribe to.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
kenny, this isn't about homosexuals or racism. It's about simple truth - intellectual and "real" truth. Delusion can only continue so long, am I right?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Sure.
You are right.
Everyone is.

Conflicting beliefs/realities coexist.
One does not conquer others.

There is no hope for universal agreement on religion/atheism.
Give up, or . . . knock yourself out. :shrug:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
"Nature is marvelous, the laws and rules that govern our universe are indeed complex and effective - but the buck stops there."

Marvelous -- but no reason that matter should have developed to ability to marvel? Laws and rules, but no one to make laws and rules -- they just are? The buck stops there because your little biomachine is incapable of going any further? OK.

Go ahead and be an independent autonomic biomachine. No love apart from some feeling that is really mere chemical reactions in response to stimuli, no transcendent horizon, nothing apart from the prison of the matter and the random chance electrochemical activity that makes up the Crashtest biosystem. Live that fully since that's all you have and nothing really matters other than egocentric fulfillment of whatever appetites your chemistry dictates. :thumb:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I think it is disrespectful to spread atheism or religion.

It says, "I'm right. Your are wrong. Be like me or you are not okay."
It is insulting.

I you want another human being to be just like you go have a kid.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
But kids aren't the same as parents, kenny.
And how are you today?
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nope. They really aren't. Much to my father's chagrin.
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson

My Flickr Photostream


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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Parents can raise their children in their religion.

Frequently it works.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
But the child is still not the same as the parent. Your argument loses.
And how are you today?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
Jul 15 2009, 09:13 PM
I think it is disrespectful to spread atheism or religion.

It says, "I'm right. Your are wrong. Be like me or you are not okay."
It is insulting.

I you want another human being to be just like you go have a kid.
Isn't it disrespectful and insulting to tell people how to act -- which you are doing in telling them to not spread atheism or religion?

I don't see how you can step outside of the same pattern -- you are just proselytizing for your own version of how people should act.

Which is why Chesterton said the only honest position for a nihilist is silence.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jul 15 2009, 09:29 PM
Which is why Chesterton said the only honest position for a nihilist is silence.
That man's got me pegged.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
IT, why do we need to have been created? Natural selection and evolution do explain our current "being" without too much trouble, I don't think we need a creator in the mix.

Human emotion is well contained within our little "biosystem" as you put it - but why does it have to have more meaning? There is no proof or evidence, other than our own wishing, that it has any further significance that differentiates us from other animals or even further other "matter".
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Why do you think evolution and creation are mutually exclusive?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
CrashTest
Jul 15 2009, 09:45 PM
IT, why do we need to have been created? Natural selection and evolution do explain our current "being" without too much trouble, I don't think we need a creator in the mix.

Human emotion is well contained within our little "biosystem" as you put it - but why does it have to have more meaning? There is no proof or evidence, other than our own wishing, that it has any further significance that differentiates us from other animals or even further other "matter".
We don't have to be created -- we could we just "be" -- there does not have to be any reason or telos or plan or order or creation. But you should at least be clear that natural selection and evolution don't explain (nor do they purport to explain) existence itself, let alone the ability of conscious minds to apprehend existence.

And so it does not have to have any meaning, but then why even have a thinking mind that both gives and apprehends meaning? How is it that raw matter -- basically the stuff of rocks -- can develop into something more than the stuff of rocks such that we think we are more than the stuff of rocks?

And if you are just the stuff of rocks, and all value and meaning and significance are just ascribed and social conventions, then there really is no argument (other than the messiness of social anarchy) against the thief or liar or coward or adulterer or against a society that enslaves certain biomachines for the abundance of a certain skin pigment. It simply does not matter at the point. Any appeal to empathy or not inflicting harm on sentient beings or any of the other utilitarian platitudes is only an emotionalist holdover from some defective stage in the development of human consciousness that also believed in cosmic divine forces.

The materialist biomachine who process stimuli and reacts with the output that he is nothing more than the stuff of rocks has no claim to justice or compassion or empathy or human freedom from other biomachines who are also nothing more than the stuff of rocks.

But to the contrary of your assertion, I think that order itself conjoined with the ability of the mind to apprehend order is sufficient evidence for at least the plausibility of God.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Horace
Jul 15 2009, 09:40 PM
ivorythumper
Jul 15 2009, 09:29 PM
Which is why Chesterton said the only honest position for a nihilist is silence.
That man's got me pegged.
I think you'd enjoy him -- a lot of your musings on the paradoxes of life remind me of his writings.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
IT, you seem to imply that only god is able to give humans morality, meaning, and a sense of justice - I don't agree with that. We are governed by our own psychology which through nature or nurture, allows us to have a sense of morality and meaning without needing a god. But in sense, as you put it - only to the avoidance of social messiness, our own well being, and harmony amongst our species do we desire to have morals and a sense of right and wrong. No need for a higher meaning, spiritual or supernatural.

Our ability to be conscious of ourselves, and the plausibility of god - is just a byproduct of our psychology. The same facets of mind that allow us the freedom to imagine fantastical creations of art, and in our early history - methods of survival and advancing humanity, also play a part in our more basic attempt to explain the universe. It is a default psychological tendency that if influenced or indoctrinated early, takes a very strong foothold of an individual's mind. Some animals have very advanced reactions to stimuli in nature that are both psychological and physiological - our intellect is one of our traits that helps us survive; much like how a chameleon has color-changing abilities or a night animal better vision in the dark.

Creation and evolution - I think creationism is superfluous. It seems much less likely to me that there is a supreme being capable of creating the universe versus nature and natural selection creating what we know now step by step - so that is why I dismiss creationism as not only unlikely, but only a fallback safety net for human understanding. (Or the lack thereof) It seems to me much more of a stretch to believe in that supreme creator, than it is to believe in what we can actually see with our eyes every day - nature in action.

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