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South Bend is the Selma for this era
Topic Started: May 11 2009, 02:13 PM (926 Views)
Pianolicious
Senior Carp
musicasacra: I got up to section 31 thanks to Evelyn Woods.

You misunderstand me. I am not pro abortion. I am anti-ignorance. Making something illegal doesn't make it stop. Usually, the opposite occurs.
Sit tibi vita longa et omnia bona!!! -- Dr. Spock
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
Pianolicious
May 11 2009, 06:18 PM
musicasacra: I got up to section 31 thanks to Evelyn Woods.

You misunderstand me. I am not pro abortion. I am anti-ignorance. Making something illegal doesn't make it stop. Usually, the opposite occurs.
But you seem to have a misinformed view of why the Catholic Church would be pro-life, with your references to it being a smokescreen. Thus, I thought it would be a good read.
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Pianolicious
Senior Carp
musicasacra: i completely understand your gesture and appreciate it. I do not believe however that the church walks its talk.
Sit tibi vita longa et omnia bona!!! -- Dr. Spock
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Pianolicious
Senior Carp
http://blog.beliefnet.com/pontifications/2009/05/forgive-trespasses-alan-keyes.html

I'm not sure how I feel about the women with signs indicating their remorse. If I buy what i read on this forum, these women should be making license plates somewhere.

Posted Image

Sit tibi vita longa et omnia bona!!! -- Dr. Spock
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
May 11 2009, 05:12 PM
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Well, he's all for private property rights generally. I think even IT would admit that.

Except when he isn't ... read this thread.
You could power the city of Boston with your backpedaling, Quirt.

Show me where I said that ND was not within their rights to have the man arrested.
Backpedaling? Come back from Wonderland, the rabbit hole is over there.

You didn't say they weren't within their rights. You just complained about the way they chose to exercise those rights. If it's a right, they can do what they want, and you shouldn't carp about how they choose to exercise their rights. If you had any principles at all, that is.
Now you're not even backpedaling, you are just making things up to try to save face. Some would call that lying.

I didn't complain about the way they chose to exercise their rights. I simply offered the opinion that it is a bad political decision.

So you can start lecturing people about principles when you stop making things up because you can't admit that you were wrong about something.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
PL, I don't think anyone is calling for prison sentences for women who abort. Simply that abortion on demand no longer be lawful.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
It is a standard canard that for the prolife position to be consistent that women who have abortions should be charged with murder.

The simple rejoinders are that 1) women seeking abortions are often in a vulnerable position, and can be under coercision or family/relational/societal pressure to abort; 2) women are often ignorant of the basic fetology having been misinformed over the past 30 odd years that it is only a "sack of chemicals" or "not a human being" or "not a person"; 3) it would be better legal policy to not subject women who have abortions to criminal complaints in order that they can freely cooperate to go after the real murderers who are the profiteering abortionists; 4) women who abort are probably more in need of therapy and healing than judicial punishment.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
May 12 2009, 01:30 AM
QuirtEvans
May 11 2009, 05:12 PM
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Well, he's all for private property rights generally. I think even IT would admit that.

Except when he isn't ... read this thread.
You could power the city of Boston with your backpedaling, Quirt.

Show me where I said that ND was not within their rights to have the man arrested.
Backpedaling? Come back from Wonderland, the rabbit hole is over there.

You didn't say they weren't within their rights. You just complained about the way they chose to exercise those rights. If it's a right, they can do what they want, and you shouldn't carp about how they choose to exercise their rights. If you had any principles at all, that is.
Now you're not even backpedaling, you are just making things up to try to save face. Some would call that lying.

I didn't complain about the way they chose to exercise their rights. I simply offered the opinion that it is a bad political decision.

So you can start lecturing people about principles when you stop making things up because you can't admit that you were wrong about something.
Oh please. You're so disconnected from reality that you don't even realize when you're lying.

This thread is yet another example of why talking to you is an utter waste of time. You say something, people call you on it, and then you attack them for supposedly making up what you just said.

It's awfully hard to have a discussion with someone for whom reality is only a sometimes concept.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
May 12 2009, 01:33 AM
PL, I don't think anyone is calling for prison sentences for women who abort. Simply that abortion on demand no longer be lawful.
In other words, a participant in a murder shouldn't be charged with the crime of murder.

[Note for IT, who has a penchant for misinterpreting every statement: I don't believe that an unborn fetus is a human being. I don't believe that abortion is killing a human being. Therefore, I don't believe abortion is murder. I am merely following along Mik's line of argument. I know that's awfully hard for you to understand, in the BizzaroWorld in which you live, but do try.]

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Disingenuous at best. What we are talking about is making elective abortion illegal. Making it legally murder is a totally separate issue.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
May 12 2009, 02:54 AM
Disingenuous at best. What we are talking about is making elective abortion illegal. Making it legally murder is a totally separate issue.
Please. You're just trying to duck the consequences of your own philosophical beliefs, because the consequences are unacceptable.

1. Is a fetus a human being?

2. Is it a crime to kill a human being?

3. When you kill a human being intentionally, is the crime called murder?

Which of those three questions would you not answer "Yes" to?

I recognize that it leads you to a place you don't want to be. Too damn bad. At least have the honesty to recognize that, under the existing legal framework, your belief system would lead you to that place.

IT, it appears, would change the legal system to deal with the fact that the belief system leads to unacceptable legal consequences. But that too would have societal consequences ... refusing to punish some forms of murder cheapens life, too.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
PL: No one here - or anywhere else I've seen - has ever recommended prison for a woman who's had an abortion. An occasional bit of exaggeration for effect is understandable, particularly if the ultimate point is valid, but come on.

First, since you appreciate irony, are you missing the irony that in this case, it's a Catholic university who is involved in *squelching* a pro-life demonstration, as opposed to the opposite?

But to the actual point, do you truly believe that the Roman Catholic church (or, for that matter, any Christian church) has latched on to a pro-life position simply as a smokescreen to avoid scrutiny of clergy abuse? There is some irony, even if grossly disproportionate, to the idea of a Christian body standing up for the unborn child while some small percentage of its adherents are abusing born children. Ignoring that disproportionality for a moment, that same irony - upholding the correctness of one moral position, while violating others - is inherent in not merely in every religious body, but in every human body. The fact that we are all, as individuals or corporate bodies, a mixed bag of moral hypocrisy is a given of our existence.

Ultimately though, you can't ignore the disproportionality of the scenario you've posed. Neither can you ignore the fact that the largest moral force of Christian pro-life advocates are the masses of individuals, not their church leadership or organnizations; plus the reality that Christian pro-life sentiment cuts a broad, almost universal swath across all Christian bodies, whether they have clergy/child abuse problems or not.

There is irony, and there is absurdity, and one shouldn't be confused for the other.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Pianolicious
Senior Carp
Dewey
May 12 2009, 03:25 AM
PL: PL: No one here - or anywhere else I've seen - has ever recommended prison for a woman who's had an abortion. An occasional bit of exaggeration for effect is understandable, particularly if the ultimate point is valid, but come on.

First, since you appreciate irony, are you missing the irony that in this case, it's a Catholic university who is involved in *squelching* a pro-life demonstration, as opposed to the opposite?


I won't answer the first part. Quirt pretty much nailed that one.

Unless I'm missing a huge part of the second argument, I see a Catholic University trying to increase the converstion while at the same time protecting the safety and privacy rights of students entrusted to their care.

Someone at Notre Dame is thinking like an adult and not like a child, which is against church teachings and he will probably be punished for it. By thinking like an adult, or perhaps even like (perish the thought) JESUS, he wants to create dialogue on the issue and get it in front of the people and perhaps hopes for real solutions. He wants it discussed and debated. He doesn't want it to stay hushed up and secret -- a practice that has cost his employer nearly $500 billion dollars and counting. He has pulled the biggest coup in the history of the Catholic church in America.

If it's deliberate in order to deflect attention away from the clergy sex abuse cases that continue to go to court, then that's one form of irony.

If he's just a radical who wants to get the issue out in the open and step away from his superior's dysfunctional attitudes towards sex in general, then there's a more positive irony.

But there is no irony in your approach. Yours is what I expect. It's the easy side of the argument to take. Of COURSE abortion is wrong. Of COURSE it's terrible. But the causes of abortion have to do with looking at adult problems in a population raised within a framework of aspiring to be perpetual children, which causes problems when wombs and penii come to life.

Since sexual reality is a taboo (and expen$ive) subject in the RC church, the only $afe conversation is the abortion one. Obama shouldn't speak there, end of subject.

The road to heaven will be very overcrowded if admission is granted only to those who ask the questions with the easy answers.
Sit tibi vita longa et omnia bona!!! -- Dr. Spock
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I don't recall Jesus increasing the converation with the moneylenders. I believe he scourged them from the temple.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
QuirtEvans
May 12 2009, 03:15 AM
Mikhailoh
May 12 2009, 02:54 AM
Disingenuous at best. What we are talking about is making elective abortion illegal. Making it legally murder is a totally separate issue.
Please. You're just trying to duck the consequences of your own philosophical beliefs, because the consequences are unacceptable.

1. Is a fetus a human being?

2. Is it a crime to kill a human being?

3. When you kill a human being intentionally, is the crime called murder?

Which of those three questions would you not answer "Yes" to?

I recognize that it leads you to a place you don't want to be. Too damn bad. At least have the honesty to recognize that, under the existing legal framework, your belief system would lead you to that place.

IT, it appears, would change the legal system to deal with the fact that the belief system leads to unacceptable legal consequences. But that too would have societal consequences ... refusing to punish some forms of murder cheapens life, too.
Let me paraphrase what you have said here, and so many times:

'I can set the rules of what is and is not logic, so you have to think the way I decree. Ergo I win'.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Pianolicious
Senior Carp
he increased the conversation with the prostitutes, with the ones who have little power, who faced being stoned to death by people who could just as easily been in her shoes -- a fact which saved her life.
Sit tibi vita longa et omnia bona!!! -- Dr. Spock
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
He had to. They were his wife's friends.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
May 12 2009, 09:56 AM
QuirtEvans
May 12 2009, 03:15 AM
Mikhailoh
May 12 2009, 02:54 AM
Disingenuous at best. What we are talking about is making elective abortion illegal. Making it legally murder is a totally separate issue.
Please. You're just trying to duck the consequences of your own philosophical beliefs, because the consequences are unacceptable.

1. Is a fetus a human being?

2. Is it a crime to kill a human being?

3. When you kill a human being intentionally, is the crime called murder?

Which of those three questions would you not answer "Yes" to?

I recognize that it leads you to a place you don't want to be. Too damn bad. At least have the honesty to recognize that, under the existing legal framework, your belief system would lead you to that place.

IT, it appears, would change the legal system to deal with the fact that the belief system leads to unacceptable legal consequences. But that too would have societal consequences ... refusing to punish some forms of murder cheapens life, too.
Let me paraphrase what you have said here, and so many times:

'I can set the rules of what is and is not logic, so you have to think the way I decree. Ergo I win'.
Ah, I see ... since you can't argue against the logic of the position, you attack the person. You learned your Dick Cheney lessons well, young Padawan.

But, since you've accused me of trying to set the rules of logic, perhaps you'd like to offer your own logical explanation for how this works?

First ... is or is not a fetus a human being, in your world view?

Second ... is or is it not a crime to kill a human being, in your world view?

Third ... is or is not the crime of intentionally killing a human being murder?

Which of those three questions is flawed somehow? Have I somehow slanted the questions?

Or is it simply this ... your position is so irrational and illogical that, when confronted with it, you have to look away, ignore the logic, and resort to attacking those who force you to face it?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Yes, Quirt, it's all irrational and you are the only rational person in the world.

You know damn good and well that outlawing abortion and deeming it murder in the eyes of the law are two different things.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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musicasacra
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HOLY CARP!!!
Pianolicious
May 12 2009, 09:30 AM
Dewey
May 12 2009, 03:25 AM
PL: PL: No one here - or anywhere else I've seen - has ever recommended prison for a woman who's had an abortion. An occasional bit of exaggeration for effect is understandable, particularly if the ultimate point is valid, but come on.

First, since you appreciate irony, are you missing the irony that in this case, it's a Catholic university who is involved in *squelching* a pro-life demonstration, as opposed to the opposite?

Someone at Notre Dame is thinking like an adult and not like a child, which is against church teachings and he will probably be punished for it.
Thinking like an adult is against church teachings? Oh my.

Your posts make no sense when you talk about the Catholic Church, your conspiracy views of smokescreens and deflections, the Vatican associated with 666 -- I think you have quite misinformed views on the Catholic faith. I attempted to offer something, some insight into Catholic views of the inherent value of human life (i.e., it's not a made up smokescreen). I don't think you're interested in learning more about what Catholic beliefs really are, but you're quite willing to make uninformed accusations and condemnations. I would call that bias.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
May 12 2009, 10:03 AM
Yes, Quirt, it's all irrational and you are the only rational person in the world.

You know damn good and well that outlawing abortion and deeming it murder in the eyes of the law are two different things.
Caution! Low clearance! Better duck!

You know damn well the logic is correct. The fact that you cannot and do not refute it is quite telling.

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Pianolicious
May 12 2009, 09:58 AM
he increased the conversation with the prostitutes, with the ones who have little power, who faced being stoned to death by people who could just as easily been in her shoes -- a fact which saved her life.
So precisely what aspect of increasing the conversation is being served by arresting a group of protesters attempting to generate debate?

This article is about ND preventing Alan Keyes and other people from protesting Obama's commencement address, on the grounds that Obama's abortion stance is contrary to RC doctrine. If you want to discuss clergy/chilod abuse, that's your prerogative, but it really isn't relevant to this article - unless you honetly believe the bilge that the entire RCC stance regarding abortion is really a dodge to avoid discussing sexual misconduct.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
QuirtEvans
May 12 2009, 10:10 AM
Mikhailoh
May 12 2009, 10:03 AM
Yes, Quirt, it's all irrational and you are the only rational person in the world.

You know damn good and well that outlawing abortion and deeming it murder in the eyes of the law are two different things.
Caution! Low clearance! Better duck!

You know damn well the logic is correct. The fact that you cannot and do not refute it is quite telling.

Is not.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Pianolicious
Senior Carp
musicascara: my question long ago about "666" and the Vatican wasn't intended as a slam against the Vatican. It was just a question and it was posed in a different context -- that of religious symbology and Obama. I can see, in hindsight, how a Catholic person might have been offended by it if only for the reason that I dared to ask, but I don't think the Catholic church is satanic.

Sit tibi vita longa et omnia bona!!! -- Dr. Spock
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
May 12 2009, 02:42 AM
ivorythumper
May 12 2009, 01:30 AM
QuirtEvans
May 11 2009, 05:12 PM
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Well, he's all for private property rights generally. I think even IT would admit that.

Except when he isn't ... read this thread.
You could power the city of Boston with your backpedaling, Quirt.

Show me where I said that ND was not within their rights to have the man arrested.
Backpedaling? Come back from Wonderland, the rabbit hole is over there.

You didn't say they weren't within their rights. You just complained about the way they chose to exercise those rights. If it's a right, they can do what they want, and you shouldn't carp about how they choose to exercise their rights. If you had any principles at all, that is.
Now you're not even backpedaling, you are just making things up to try to save face. Some would call that lying.

I didn't complain about the way they chose to exercise their rights. I simply offered the opinion that it is a bad political decision.

So you can start lecturing people about principles when you stop making things up because you can't admit that you were wrong about something.
Oh please. You're so disconnected from reality that you don't even realize when you're lying.

This thread is yet another example of why talking to you is an utter waste of time. You say something, people call you on it, and then you attack them for supposedly making up what you just said.

It's awfully hard to have a discussion with someone for whom reality is only a sometimes concept.
That's rich, Quirt.

Mik called you on your allegation that I was rejecting property rights law and that I was a hypocrite.

You backpedal furiously about how I am "all for private property rights generally". Weasel words, Quirt -- you typically try to reframe the terms after you have made a mistake to try to avoid having to recant. You even compound your error with your statement "Except when he isn't ... read this thread." There is nothing in this thread about my saying ND did not enjoy property rights. Once again you just make something up to suit your purpose. Facts be damned, huh?

So when I challenged you to "Show me where I said that ND was not within their rights to have the man arrested" you had to admit that I was correct ("You didn't say they weren't within their rights") but then had to make something else up rather than recant. (You just complained about the way they chose to exercise those rights).

I uttered no complaint, but the truth and facts don't seem to concern you if you can make an argument to try to save your position.

Really, Quirt, I understand why you are so angry at me, and so intent on trying to dismiss me as delusional or unprincipled or a hypocrite or inconsistent or not dealing in reality, but this thread is fairly emblematic of your own patterns of not dealing with the reality of what someone is actually saying. I can see why you would find that frustrating and the cause of anger, and why you have to lash out at your opponents.

If you find it hard to have a discussion with someone for whom reality is only a sometimes concept, maybe you should try some medicine to stop the voices inside your own head -- they are the real problem, not the external world.



The dogma lives loudly within me.
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