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The Coming War
Topic Started: Apr 23 2009, 05:26 PM (390 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I think it's going to be a big issue...

http://www.redstate.com/congressman_mike_pence/2009/04/23/a-declaration-of-war/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
If they insist on doing this crap and keeping and even raising income tax rates then utility bills should be a 100% tax credit.

A$$holes!
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

I've heard the cost will be $2,000 to $3,000 per household, per year, from several sources. Not sure I understand why it is anticipated to be so high, but if it is I think it is a real problem. I'm not willing to spend another $2,000 a year. The other fear is that estimates on government projects often turn out to be low, which would mean we end up paying more.

How is this not a tax on the working class? How are single mothers with 2 jobs going to come up with $2,000 a year more?
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
It absolutely is. Why do you think Al Gore was so for it? It looks to me like it raises taxes so they Dems can institute the social programs they want, all the while claiming 'protect the environment'.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
There's definitely something bad coming. When people can't earn a living wage, when they don't know they're going to provide for their families and they can't afford basic health care, and when they see the government getting fatter and bigger, the proletariat grows angry, bitter, and resentful.

Looking at the course ahead, breaking it down to what it means to individuals...

People are increasingly angry. The news channels can laugh at the Tea Parties all they want, and reporters can ridicule all they want, but someone in the Whore House White House had best be taking notice. People are pissed. It's not just Republicans. It's not just Conservatives. People are angry enough to actually take time off of work, spend time making up signs, and spending the day in the streets, protesting.

It means something.

If those in positions of power are wise, they will sit up and take notice.

No one is going to be angrier than those who previously supported the current administration, those who cast their votes for it, and those who were the true believers, once they find that they have been scorned and deceived. The backlash is going to be furious.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Pitchfork time?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Shutting Detroit Down - John Rich
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Should I remind you that cap and trade was originally proposed and pushed by conservative free marketeers, because it allows the free market to efficiently price pollution and transfer the right to pollute to those to whom that right is most valuable?

Nah, that would spoil your spluttering fantasies.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Jolly
Apr 24 2009, 04:04 PM
Pitchfork time?
I don't know... I said this during the election, about a year ago, that if Obama didn't live up to the hype; if he didn't deliver on his campaign promises and if he ended up being less than what he led his supporters to expect, that there would be a lot of disillusionment, a lot of anger, a lot of bitterness, and possibly a whole new generation of disenfranchised voters who might never be involved in our nation's political process again, because of it.

I'd say that President Obama probably has until October at the latest, to turn some things around in a major way... Already, there is a low rumble of dissension and anger. I hope he turns it around. I hope he does what's best for the nation. I hope the shady brand of Chicago B.S. comes to an end. I hope the economy rebounds. I hope the focus in Afghanistan doesn't waver. I hope that when it comes to foreign policy, he proves himself as wise as Solomon and so steady that our enemies believe he has ice-water in his veins.

So yeah... I have a lot of hope. Perhaps it's a bit of a different brand, though.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Mick E. Likker
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Advanced Member
Frank_W
Apr 23 2009, 07:12 PM
There's definitely something bad coming.
yeah - it's called a Depression.....and it's only just beginning!
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mmmoosetoe69
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Member
Mick E. Likker
Apr 24 2009, 07:15 PM
Frank_W
Apr 23 2009, 07:12 PM
There's definitely something bad coming.
yeah - it's called a Depression.....and it's only just beginning!
:whome: :wave:
"I come from a land down under..."
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Apr 24 2009, 06:52 PM
Should I remind you that cap and trade was originally proposed and pushed by conservative free marketeers, because it allows the free market to efficiently price pollution and transfer the right to pollute to those to whom that right is most valuable?

Nah, that would spoil your spluttering fantasies.
And even assuming you are correct that Burton and Sanjour were actually conservative free marketers, that is supposed to mean what? That conservative free marketers should be in favor of a ruinous policy? :blink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
QuirtEvans
Apr 24 2009, 06:52 PM
Should I remind you that cap and trade was originally proposed and pushed by conservative free marketeers, because it allows the free market to efficiently price pollution and transfer the right to pollute to those to whom that right is most valuable?

Nah, that would spoil your spluttering fantasies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading


You know, I read the Wiki article on it 4 times, and I *still* can't find any mention of those "conservative free marketeers" having anything to do with it, nor could I find the reason you have stated as having played any part in things. But I'm more than willing to let you show me where it does.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Allow me to be the contrarian here. I don't think the middle class pays enough taxes.

That would be ok if they were (in aggregate) willing to accept meaningful spending cuts, but they don't seem to be.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
jon - What's your view on this? Seems overly complicated, though intended to get free-market information into the system. A direct external pollution penalty tax on specific polluting energy sources (gasoline, coal, etc.) seems much more direct and simpler.

Should be a big plus for nuclear.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
There is an obvious perverse incentive for people who pay little to no taxes to vote on the taxation system. De Tocqueville pointed this out a long while ago.
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George K
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Finally
Jeff
Apr 25 2009, 04:34 AM
There is an obvious perverse incentive for people who pay little to no taxes to vote on the taxation system. De Tocqueville pointed this out a long while ago.
As did Franklin.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Jeff
Apr 25 2009, 04:31 AM
jon - What's your view on this? Seems overly complicated, though intended to get free-market information into the system. A direct external pollution penalty tax on specific polluting energy sources (gasoline, coal, etc.) seems much more direct and simpler.

Should be a big plus for nuclear.
Still forming it. I've read that a straight carbon tax is more efficient as well, but I've not investigated it or given it much thought.

Generally speaking I think taxing fossil fuels is a fantastic idea, especially if its a replacement of revenue from income tax as opposed to a supplement.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
jon-nyc
Apr 25 2009, 04:42 AM
a replacement of revenue from income tax as opposed to a supplement.

Good luck with that!! :)
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Jeff
Senior Carp
jon-nyc
Apr 25 2009, 04:42 AM

Generally speaking I think taxing fossil fuels is a fantastic idea

I may support it on this basis. But seems like a lot of complication and middlemen for a worthy goal. Just a first pass thought. I need to learn more.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Apr 24 2009, 11:34 PM
QuirtEvans
Apr 24 2009, 06:52 PM
Should I remind you that cap and trade was originally proposed and pushed by conservative free marketeers, because it allows the free market to efficiently price pollution and transfer the right to pollute to those to whom that right is most valuable?

Nah, that would spoil your spluttering fantasies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading


You know, I read the Wiki article on it 4 times, and I *still* can't find any mention of those "conservative free marketeers" having anything to do with it, nor could I find the reason you have stated as having played any part in things. But I'm more than willing to let you show me where it does.

Haven't found it yet, but I'll keep looking.

Here's something consistent with what I remember, though.

Quote:
 
Many proponents of the free market economy point to pollution credits as an excellent way to deal with pollution, and in pilot programs all over the world, it has been shown to be very effective. It is also a more efficient system than one of government regulation; rather than trying to police every potentially polluting company, the government can focus on setting a cap and meeting that goal, hopefully reducing it over time as well.


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-pollution-credits.htm
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jeff
Senior Carp
Quirt - Your basic thought is correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market_environmentalism

An opposed "conservative" view would be property rights fundamentalism, but this is an attempt to allow markets to deal with pollution externalities not currently dealt with very well. Again, perhaps a direct consumer tax on gas and coal would be simpler, but not as comprehensive and politically unpassable.
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