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Middle School Strip Search Hits the Supreme Court
Topic Started: Apr 22 2009, 12:21 AM (354 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/21/AR2009042103695.html?hpid=moreheadlines
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
What a bizarre case, and what a bizarre series of responses from the judges from across the political spectrum. It is really troubling -- especially Roberts' solomonic suggestion to split the baby in half.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
A somewhat bizzare deliberation, it seems to me. Ibuprophen? When was the last time a kid died of an ibuprophen overdose?

It may be legal to do this, but it sure isn't smart, or proportional.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Apr 22 2009, 02:41 AM
A somewhat bizzare deliberation, it seems to me. Ibuprophen? When was the last time a kid died of an ibuprophen overdose?

It may be legal to do this, but it sure isn't smart, or proportional.
Amen. You can't decide the case based on the drugs involved ... if they're illegal, they're illegal ... but you CAN criticize the school officials for rotten judgment.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Agreed. Once things progressed to the point of removing more than a jacket and shoes, then the police should have been called. (If illegal drugs were suspected.) At the very least, the girl's parents should have been called. If this happened to my daughter, I would be furious beyond belief, and yeah, I'd be tempted to sue their asses off. I kinda' hope they win.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I don't know that I hope they win, but I hope it serves as a lesson to other school districts. Even zero tolerance (a very foolish policy, IMO) has its limits.

I think the parents are overreacting a bit and I do not accept that it ruined this girl's life and they are entitled to mucho dinero - sorry, it just ain't THAT traumatic - but still it cost the school district a lot of money and embarassment.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Well, I agree with that, too. It seems like these parents have gone entirely too far the OTHER way. There's a certain extremism on both sides of the issue, isn't there?
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
I haven't read recent articles on this (but heard an NPR story on this). I thought the case would turn on the public/private distinction. Wasn't this a private school? Is there any state action here? Am I missing something, Quirt?
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I thought it was a public school ... I'll have to check.

However, there are limits to what you can do to kids, even in a private school setting.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Piano*Dad
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Bull-Carp
Quote:
 
However, there are limits to what you can do to kids, even in a private school setting.



Indeed. One does not surrender their civil rights because they walk inside a private institution.
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
All right. I thought it was private, but it would make more sense if it were public.

I even took an educational policy course in law school but I don't remember the law as it applies to Constitutional rights of minors enrolled in private schools. I recall that they were treated differently, though, and I keep waiting for the media to mention this. I'd like to clarify it for myself. I pulled out my old text book, but it's full of lengthy cases I'd have to read......
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
A Google search turned up this article. Less reliable but sooo much easier than reading the actual cases.....

Quote:
 
A few things should be noted here. First, most of this essay applies only to public schools. As private institutions, private schools are not subject to any restrictions in terms of violations of the rights of students. Hence, while a public school might have to prove that its violations are for a higher purpose or stem from its in loco parentis responsibilities, a private school may set limits arbitrarily.

Second, students in public schools are not stripped of their rights completely. In Board v Barnette (319 US 624 [1943]), for example, the Supreme Court ruled that students could not be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor otherwise salute the flag against their will. In Tinker v Des Moines (393 US 503 [1969]), the Supreme Court ruled that students wearing black arm bands to protest the Vietnam War could not be forced to remove the arm bands by school officials. As written in Tinker, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."


"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
And this article, too.

This essay seems to support the idea of no Constitutional rights, but contract law, for private schools Of course criminal laws still apply.

My guess is that most people don't appreciate this distinction.
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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big al
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Bull-Carp
It was a public school, the Safford Unified School District. It will be interesting to see if the justices can find a bright line to draw here. Unfortunately, as Mik rightly notes, zero tolerance policies lead to their own injustices in seeking to avoid the injustices of preferential enforcement.

Safford is a pleasant little town in the heart of the Arizona cotton-growing region.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Frank_W
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Why do such things have to have policies? Has common sense gone on vacation, or something? These are the people who are educating our children?

We're fcuked... :doh:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Yeah, but these things are comparatively rare. I think the vast majority of school districts exercise very good judgement. In this age though we hear long and loud about every one that doesn't.

Every enterprise draws its share of idiots.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
Okay, a public school makes more sense, thanks, Big Al.

I thought the case was going to turn on the Constitutional rights of students in private schools. Frankly, that issue was more interesting to me (if it's a public school, the issue seems clearcut to me).
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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Wim
Junior Carp
Schools should never be allowed to perform strip searches because it's not their core business.

Searching for (illegal) drugs should be done by somenone appointed by the law (not connected to the school). If the pupil is a minor, his/her parents should be present during the search.

That's the way we do it (most of the time) in Belgium: we're not even allowed to search pupils' rucksacks or bookcases.
We can only ask pupils to empty their cases, bags etc in order to prove they have nothing to hide. If they refuse to do so police is automatically involved and they will then perform a search.

Up till now this sytem has proven its value.

Wim



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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Exactly, Wim. :thumb: (Up until now, I was pretty sure that's the way OUR system in the US operated, too!) :unsure:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
RosemaryTwo
Apr 22 2009, 06:51 AM
Okay, a public school makes more sense, thanks, Big Al.

I thought the case was going to turn on the Constitutional rights of students in private schools. Frankly, that issue was more interesting to me (if it's a public school, the issue seems clearcut to me).
I agreed, it would be interesting if it were a private school.

In general, waivers of Constitutional rights have to be knowing and explicit. Somehow, I doubt a private school would get parents explicitly to agree that they could conduct strip searches.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
If I was the parent I would be pressing charges of child sexual abuse on the perps.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
The school district was wrong. For the life of me I can't understand why they wouldn't have brought in the parent(s).

Zero-tolerance policies are retarded. They have them just so they don't have to use common sense (and open themselves up to charges of unequal treatment).

Two of my three daughters would probably have been "traumatized" by such an event. I'd pursue modest compensation but would also be telling my kid to "buck up". Having to shower in gym class is only slightly less humiliating.

If I was the parent I'd be seeking an out-of-court settlement of perhaps a few thousand dollars as well as some language put into their policies about always having a parent on hand for such a thing. Any compensation recovered would go straight into a college fund. No kid should require any counseling or psych treatment after such an event.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Lawyers.

Lawyers and their lawsuits lead to zero tolerance, which in turn leads to the death of judgment and common sense.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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Jolly
Apr 22 2009, 04:47 PM
Lawyers.

Lawyers and their lawsuits lead to zero tolerance, which in turn leads to the death of judgment and common sense.
You're irrational on the subject.

Ever think that the good guys in this situation ... the one protecting the student's rights ... are lawyers?

Nah, that would interfere with your bigotry.

But, here's a clue. Try this one on for size ... guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Similarly, lawyers don't file lawsuits, people file lawsuits. It's the mentality that's the problem, not the lawyers.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Apr 22 2009, 04:52 PM
Jolly
Apr 22 2009, 04:47 PM
Lawyers.

Lawyers and their lawsuits lead to zero tolerance, which in turn leads to the death of judgment and common sense.
You're irrational on the subject.

Ever think that the good guys in this situation ... the one protecting the student's rights ... are lawyers?

Nah, that would interfere with your bigotry.

But, here's a clue. Try this one on for size ... guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Similarly, lawyers don't file lawsuits, people file lawsuits. It's the mentality that's the problem, not the lawyers.
Go to loser pays, and watch the number of lawsuit filings drop like a rock.

At the very least it will get rid of the seemly begathon of lawyers promoting class action suits on the telly...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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