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Ron Paul, As Delusional As Ever
Topic Started: Apr 21 2009, 01:18 PM (724 Views)
Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
That worked. Okay, I'm all better, now. :D
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
:lol:

OK, now sing a few verses of 'It's a Small World After All' - here's your equipment.

Posted Image

Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Apr 22 2009, 10:13 AM
QuirtEvans
Apr 22 2009, 09:42 AM
I also want to point out one other thing. I'm loyal to America no matter who is properly elected, whether I agree or not. Your loyalty seems conditioned on agreeing with the validly elected leaders. If you don't like what they are doing, you want to take your ball and leave.

Which one is the real meaning of patriotism? What happened to, my country, right or wrong?
I don't have time right now to answer your other question, but I'll address this one because it won't take too long.

What happened to "my country right or wrong"? Let me use an analogy - I can cuss my sister. But if you cuss my sister, I'm going to fight you.

My country right or wrong is fine when someone outside the US is picking on us and we're responding. It doesn't apply to issues within the country, in other words, if a faction of the country is doing things that will destroy the nation, then that should be fought with the same fervor that we'd fight "insert foreign nation here" with.

Which is the "real meaning of patriotism"? You've drawn a strawman. Is it patriotic to sit on your hands and watch an out of control government take the nation down the toilet? The question I would ask you is "who are you being patriotic to"? It seems you think the one we are supposed to be patriotic to is the government "right or wrong". I don't subsribe to that notion.

If the government is doing its job, if the government is following the Constitution, then yes, I'll support it to the end. If on the other hand the government is not doing its job, if it's not following the Constitution, and if the actions of those elected to office is putting the nation in peril, or heading us in a way that is not in keeping with the will of the people who elected them, then not only will I not support it, I will do everything in my power to change it.

Our government is not doing its job. It is taking us toward a Socialist State, it is overstepping its authority, and it is headed in the wrong direction. If it takes secession, let's have at it. If it takes another civil war, let's have at it. But the LAST thing a true patriot should do is decide that the federal government is another King of England and just roll over and let a group of power hungry ideologues ruin it.

Sorry, Larry, but that sounds like a sore loser. That sounds like someone who doesn't want majority rule unless he's in the majority. You may think the country is headed in the wrong direction. A majority doesn't. You get your chance again in four years.

Conservatives apparently need refresher course in the meaning of democracy.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
We are not a democracy Quirt!

Why do you keep insisting that we are?
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
You make the assumption that the majority wants what's happening. I assure you that you are quite mistaken.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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brenda
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..............
Quote:
 
Still, 57% think the nation is heading in the wrong direction, also the same as last week, according to the latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.


Quote:
 
Looking back, 59% of voters nationwide believe the federal bailouts for banks and other financial institutions were a bad idea. Another survey released yesterday shows 60% of Americans think the government has too much power and too much money.


Both are from the same Rasmussen Reports source.
(Article from today, April 22, 2009.)
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Sounds like a majority to me!
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Apr 22 2009, 10:46 AM
You make the assumption that the majority wants what's happening. I assure you that you are quite mistaken.

Haven't you and Jolly insisted you don't govern by polls, you govern by elections?

Election's over. You lost.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Apr 22 2009, 09:54 AM
QuirtEvans
Apr 22 2009, 09:42 AM
Which one is the real meaning of patriotism? What happened to, my country, right or wrong?
As a Victorian Englishman once said, this has as much meaning as 'My mother, drunk or sober'. Are you chaps finally catching on, just as you begin to lose your Top Nation status?
He was more of an Edwardian gentleman. But really, even if your mother was a drunk she would still be your mother and you would still love her. I never agreed with how he tried to make that point about patriotism.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
You'll love her, but you won't support what she does, I guess.

Patriotism is a bit of a funny concept really. I'm probably a bit weird, having lived in three countries. Someone, who shall remain nameless, once questioned whether I had any allegiance at all. :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
The Kindgom of D'Oh!! FTW!!!!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Allow me to remind you, just a few short years ago ....

A majority was against the war in Iraq. A very big majority. A HUGE majority, in fact.

And George W. Bush was the least popular President since Richard Nixon.

What exactly was your response, Larry, when people said that a very unpopular President shouldn't prosecute a very unpopular war?

You guys said, he's the President, he was elected, election's over, he's gets to do what he thinks is right and the hell with the polls, you'll have to wait until next time and hope you do better.

Sauce for the goose ...
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
The Kindgom of D'Oh!! FTW!!!!


I'd make a good king. I'd also work hard at personalising and testing Chesterton's remark to the nth degree.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Klaus
Apr 22 2009, 06:03 AM
ivorythumper
Apr 22 2009, 12:40 AM
Secession is not going to happen, simply because no state could survive economically isolated from all other states.
Why not? There are many economically successful independent countries that are smaller than US states.
These other nations basically grew from principalities and fiefdoms to nations. Germany, for instance or Italy. The systems are now so intertwined that surgically separating them would pose huge problems. The EU model, or NATO type alliance, could perhaps be enacted to mitigate the problems, but the American model was already shifting from federalism to centralized statism in order to promote prosperity in the 19th century, long before Lincoln. The Civil War only cemented the deal (e.g., the model and language of the American empire across the continent was a Jacksonian ideal in the 1840s).

Perhaps it is overstating it that they could not survive (I agree that Alaska and Texas probably could be better off in terms of cash flow without the Feds due to energy revenues), but a balkanization of the US would be very bad economically and certainly not bloodless.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Apr 22 2009, 01:10 PM
Quote:
 
The Kindgom of D'Oh!! FTW!!!!


I'd make a good king. I'd also work hard at personalising and testing Chesterton's remark to the nth degree.
Getting your mother drunk? :whome:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
Apr 22 2009, 01:21 PM
Klaus
Apr 22 2009, 06:03 AM
ivorythumper
Apr 22 2009, 12:40 AM
Secession is not going to happen, simply because no state could survive economically isolated from all other states.
Why not? There are many economically successful independent countries that are smaller than US states.
These other nations basically grew from principalities and fiefdoms to nations. Germany, for instance or Italy. The systems are now so intertwined that surgically separating them would pose huge problems. The EU model, or NATO type alliance, could perhaps be enacted to mitigate the problems, but the American model was already shifting from federalism to centralized statism in order to promote prosperity in the 19th century, long before Lincoln. The Civil War only cemented the deal (e.g., the model and language of the American empire across the continent was a Jacksonian ideal in the 1840s).

Perhaps it is overstating it that they could not survive (I agree that Alaska and Texas probably could be better off in terms of cash flow without the Feds due to energy revenues), but a balkanization of the US would be very bad economically and certainly not bloodless.
I can also hardly imagine Tennessee or Alaska deciding to go empire-building and take out Saddam Hussein. If the people who are talking about secession mean what they say about how important taking out Saddam was, they should think long and hard about how they'd be able to deal with the next Saddam without a U.S.-sized military.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Indeed, Quirt. The historical contingencies cannot be wished away.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
American model was already shifting from federalism to centralized statism in order to promote prosperity in the 19th century, long before Lincoln.


May help to explain why we up north are doing the exact opposite. Federalism is the way to go.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
I'm kind of the same as D'oh. I've traveled all over, lived in Japan for ten years, and spent a lot of time in other countries. I love my country, eh... but I love it enough to see it clearly, too. The United States is, like any other country, not without its liabilities, dark places in its history, and has done things in forgeign policy that can be considered downright reprehensible.

I'm keeping a wary eye... Given the choice/chance of emigrating to Australia, New Zealand, or a couple of other different countries, I would probably do so, and if it were a country in which English was not the native tongue, I would apply myself and pick up the target language without undue difficulty.

My passport is always current, and in fact, I've been paring down a lot of personal possessions over the past couple of years. As ever, no matter what life has in store, it pays to be prepared.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
Apr 22 2009, 12:30 PM

Election's over. You lost.
I have to agree with Quirt here Larry, you lost.
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I lost too, your children and mine, your grandchildren and mine, they lost also. Quirt lost also, but we realize that we lost he doesn't.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
QuirtEvans
Apr 22 2009, 12:30 PM
Larry
Apr 22 2009, 10:46 AM
You make the assumption that the majority wants what's happening. I assure you that you are quite mistaken.

Haven't you and Jolly insisted you don't govern by polls, you govern by elections?

Election's over. You lost.
Well, at least we're getting an idea of how much more ideology matters to you than the country.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Let me be clear: I'm not saying that I'm for secession. I'm saying that states have the right to do so, even if they have to declare war to do it.

I'm more in favor of replacing the federal government with a smaller, leaner one that is based on the Constitution instead of the boated, bastard child this one has become, and that any of the states that don't like that and want to cling to the abortion we have now, then instead of us seceding, we'll just kick their asses out.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
You still haven't explained how the supposedly knowledgeable lawyers deal with the Civil War and the Texas Supreme Court case. other than to just dismiss them as wrong.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Larry
Apr 21 2009, 02:01 PM
QuirtEvans
Apr 21 2009, 01:42 PM
Larry
Apr 21 2009, 01:19 PM
Secession *is* American.
Crushing secession mercilessly is also quintessentially American.


No, that's quintessential evidence of an out of control federal government that should be seceded from.
I think quirt's right. Got any $5 bills in your wallet? How about a $50?


In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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