Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
Gutting the Military
Topic Started: Apr 8 2009, 08:09 AM (656 Views)
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Yes.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Copper
Member Avatar
Shortstop
1hp
Apr 8 2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:
 
I think we're all agreed the greatest threat to US security (aside from our messed-up economy) is a briefcase nuke in the hands of a terrorist or in a ship container.


Nukes, yes......but I don't believe in briefcase nukes. The shielding alone would render it larger, otherwise people would get sick rather quickly. The critical mass for uranium 233 is 15kg, or a sphere 11cm in diameter. 235 is 52kg. There are other materials, but I don't see anything with a diameter of less than 10cm. Spheres have the minimal critical mass, so any other shape is going to be larger and heavier. Also, lower grade material requires more of it to attain critical mass (20% 235 requires 400kg). Then you need a way to rapidly join the sub critical pieces - shaped charges were the old method.

Also, nukes are not like ipods - they need constant maintenance.

Dirty bombs are another thing entirely - that's what worries me.

OK, but since most Americans have no reason to know what a kg is that would render the kg useless.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Every burnt out hippy knows that 1 kg = 2.2 lb.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
Hippies and people who are explosives-trained. :D :excited:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Some hippies are also explosives trained...
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Anybody ever read a history book?

Anybody know what the U.S. force structure was before WWI and WWII?

Yesterday ain't today. Yesterday, we could afford to take time to build the infrastructure needed to win a war of attrition. Today, it's all gonna be over by the time we really get the industrial base rolling.

In today's war, you fight with what you have. Right now, right there. Anything below a certain point is a guaranty of defeat...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
Jolly
Apr 8 2009, 04:17 PM
In today's war, you fight with what you have. Right now, right there. Anything below a certain point is a guaranty of defeat...
“As you know, you have to go to war with the army you have, not the army you want.”
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Horace
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Apr 8 2009, 04:17 PM
In today's war, you fight with what you have. Right now, right there. Anything below a certain point is a guaranty of defeat...
Can you provide a scenario in which america will be defeated militarily, with or without defense budget cuts?
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Horace
Apr 8 2009, 04:33 PM
Jolly
Apr 8 2009, 04:17 PM
In today's war, you fight with what you have. Right now, right there. Anything below a certain point is a guaranty of defeat...
Can you provide a scenario in which america will be defeated militarily, with or without defense budget cuts?
Straits of Taiwan.

China overuns Taiwan, mutual aid is invoked and Chinese forces based on land are able to counter and destroy American forces at sea.

While this is going on, cyber and economic war will be waged. China can roll the entire Pacific and cripple the U.S. economy. Leave us (and our nukes) to whither and die on the vine.

We think about what to do next week. The Chinese think about what to do next century.

That's just one. We could go to the old Fuldah gap stuff, etc...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Copper
Member Avatar
Shortstop
Horace
Apr 8 2009, 04:33 PM
Jolly
Apr 8 2009, 04:17 PM
In today's war, you fight with what you have. Right now, right there. Anything below a certain point is a guaranty of defeat...
Can you provide a scenario in which america will be defeated militarily, with or without defense budget cuts?

We cut production of the F-22.

So now Lockheed Martin needs a big bailout.

Some genius (maybe Ms. Clinton) in Washington decides to let them sell to Iran, N. Korea and Cuba (now flourishing with American tourist money).

But only if Iran, N. Korea and Cuba agree to use them for friendly purposes.

The planes are sold.

Iran, N. Korea and Cuba change their minds.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
1hp
Apr 8 2009, 01:12 PM
Nukes, yes......but I don't believe in briefcase nukes.
Well, they're out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suitcase_nuke
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
JBryan
Apr 8 2009, 04:14 PM
Some hippies are also explosives trained...
You'll never find a more capable peacenik than I. ;)

Peace to the world. (but don't fcuk with me!) :lol2:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
Jolly
Apr 8 2009, 04:41 PM
Horace
Apr 8 2009, 04:33 PM
Jolly
Apr 8 2009, 04:17 PM
In today's war, you fight with what you have. Right now, right there. Anything below a certain point is a guaranty of defeat...
Can you provide a scenario in which america will be defeated militarily, with or without defense budget cuts?
Straits of Taiwan.

China overuns Taiwan, mutual aid is invoked and Chinese forces based on land are able to counter and destroy American forces at sea.

While this is going on, cyber and economic war will be waged. China can roll the entire Pacific and cripple the U.S. economy. Leave us (and our nukes) to whither and die on the vine.

We think about what to do next week. The Chinese think about what to do next century.
To be honest, I think that the US is so in debt to China they could bring us to our knees without firing a shot. It's not really in their interests to do so, since they're as reliant on fat Americans buying massive televisions as we are on their cheap labour.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mark
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Paranoia will destroy ya!
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Only 10 carrier groups? Oh noes!
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Copper
Apr 8 2009, 05:02 PM
Horace
Apr 8 2009, 04:33 PM
Jolly
Apr 8 2009, 04:17 PM
In today's war, you fight with what you have. Right now, right there. Anything below a certain point is a guaranty of defeat...
Can you provide a scenario in which america will be defeated militarily, with or without defense budget cuts?

We cut production of the F-22.

So now Lockheed Martin needs a big bailout.

Some genius (maybe Ms. Clinton) in Washington decides to let them sell to Iran, N. Korea and Cuba (now flourishing with American tourist money).

But only if Iran, N. Korea and Cuba agree to use them for friendly purposes.

The planes are sold.

Iran, N. Korea and Cuba change their minds.
You may have a future in the Palin 2012 campaign.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
Posted Image
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
When everyone is mad at you about the same thing, you've probably got it right.

Quote:
 
President Barack Obama plans to request new funding from Congress for the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, but he risks a backlash from antiwar lawmakers.

Mr. Obama is expected to seek congressional approval of $75.5 billion for the wars, perhaps as soon as Thursday. The issue is already raising tensions on Capitol Hill, especially among liberals who are sympathetic to the president's broader agenda but voice concerns about his timeline for withdrawal of troops from Iraq and his plans to beef up forces in Afghanistan.

"I can't imagine any way I'd vote for it," said Rep. Lynn Woolsey, a California Democrat and leader in the 77-member congressional Progressive Caucus. It would be her first major break with this White House.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123923540395603311.html
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Quote:
 
When everyone is mad at you about the same thing, you've probably got it right.


Congressional Republicans are mad about Obama requesting 75.5 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan? I thought their beef with him was over his cuts in these weapons systems and manpower.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
QuirtEvans
Apr 9 2009, 07:22 AM
When everyone is mad at you about the same thing, you've probably got it right.
Yep.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
[Reponse to JB] Some think he's underfunding the military ... some think he's overfunding it. Big picture, not individual trees.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1hp
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp

Quote:
 
Nukes, yes......but I don't believe in briefcase nukes.
Quote:
 



That is hardly a briefcase nuke at 51 lbs. Look at the shipping container.

The wikipedia article also implies that all the missing Russian bombs are in the hands of the GRU.

However, the highest-ranking GRU defector Stanislav Lunev confirmed that such Russian-made devices do exist and described them in more detail [3]. These devices, “identified as RA-115s (or RA-115-01s for submersible weapons)” weigh from fifty to sixty pounds. They can last for many years if wired to an electric source. “In case there is a loss of power, there is a battery backup. If the battery runs low, the weapon has a transmitter that sends a coded message—either by satellite or directly to a GRU post at a Russian embassy or consulate.”

Not exactly in terrorist hands. (GRU or Glavnoje Razvedyvatel'noje Upravlenije is the acronym for the foreign military intelligence directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, ).

As I said before, these things will leave a trace path for detection. Remember the Russian who was poisoned in London a while back - they could trace the nuclear material weeks after it had been transported. So an alert Homeland security could detect the transport of such devices if it has detection systems in place. The worst scenario is that if one were rushed across the Mexican border and detonated quickly.

Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma in 1995, for comparison, destroyed load bearing columns in one side of the building, causing the floors to collapse, and killing 168 people. A W54 would have burned hundreds, if not thousands, of people and totally destroyed the building.

Not a rosy scenario but still not as bad as what was done with aircraft with much less elegance in NY.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
Well, the thing with a terrorist attack, is that it is primarily psychological warfare. Even if there aren't many casualties. Special Ops five-man squads have an elaborate strategy for making an enemy think he's being overrun by hundreds.

A terrorist bombing of any given bridge, any mall, power station, or any nightclub, and voila: Instantly, millions are paralyzed by fear and afraid to venture out of their homes. Add to that the way the media thrives on acting breathless and shocked all the time, and you can bring a whole nation to a screeching halt.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Frank_W
Apr 9 2009, 08:55 AM
Well, the thing with a terrorist attack, is that it is primarily psychological warfare. Even if there aren't many casualties. Special Ops five-man squads have an elaborate strategy for making an enemy think he's being overrun by hundreds.

A terrorist bombing of any given bridge, any mall, power station, or any nightclub, and voila: Instantly, millions are paralyzed by fear and afraid to venture out of their homes. Add to that the way the media thrives on acting breathless and shocked all the time, and you can bring a whole nation to a screeching halt.
You forgot the costs of all the after-effects. Heightened security measures and heightened security costs. Restrictions on individual freedoms in the name of keeping everyone safe.

And my personal favorite (which you won't agree with, but I'll mention it anyway) ... when you can't find a moving target, find a static one to attack.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
I am well aware of the post-incident effects of terrorist actions. I have no wish to extrapolate anything into any kind of political commentary, which is where I sense that you're going with this.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums with no limits on posts or members.
Learn More · Register for Free
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2