| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| If it's true, it's very disturbing | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 5 2009, 02:36 PM (1,071 Views) | |
| Mark | Apr 6 2009, 09:06 AM Post #26 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Yep. |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:07 AM Post #27 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
And that's fine, as long as that's what state law requires. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:07 AM Post #28 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
I don't understand why you would think that pointing out other presidents -- Republican or Democrat -- who are likewise doing X is some argument against X being Y. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:08 AM Post #29 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
That wasn't the point. The point was the constant refrain around here about how Obama is the most socialist President we've ever had, that Obama is pushing us farther into socialism than we've ever been, etc. It was a comparative point. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:10 AM Post #30 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
"Arms" is a generic category, Quirt. The onus is on you to show why a specific type of "arm" such as a side arm which was certainly around in the 18th cent is somehow excluded. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Apr 6 2009, 09:11 AM Post #31 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Oh, he's gone far beyond being a Socialist, Quirt. He's an outright fascist. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:13 AM Post #32 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Guess what, you don't get to decide who the "onus" is on. That's one of your usual tactics, but you don't get to make the rules about who bears the burden of proof in a discussion. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:15 AM Post #33 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
And as such, I would say that FDR was still the most socialist president and Obama will probably surpass him, but your bringing up Nixon's regulations don't argue against Obama being a socialist and more deliberately moving the country in that direction than Nixon's regulatory policies did (which are not even socialist, but rather more interventionist). |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:18 AM Post #34 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Airline price regulation wasn't intervenionist. Utility price regulation wasn't interventionist. Interest rate regulation wasn't interventionist. Laws against interstate banking weren't interventionist. Laws against mixing commercial and investment banking weren't interventionist. Try again. And, again, the point was not whether Obama is a socialist or not (which I do not agree with, but we've already been round the maypole on that one), but where we are on the spectrum, compared to where we've been on the spectrum. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:22 AM Post #35 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
I am tempted to agree with you about this not too fine a point, except for the language "shall not be infringed". To infringe can have several senses, but we must assume a more permissive sense -- to frustrate, diminish the strength of; to weaken, enfeeble, impair; to mitigate (OED). So the requirement to register seems to be a type of infringement ("you can have a gun, but only if X"). How would you deal with that language? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:26 AM Post #36 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
I am not sure why you say they weren't interventionist. Why then did he enact such policies? wiki:
|
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:27 AM Post #37 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
If that's what you mean by interventionist, then it's hard to argue that Obama is not exactly the same thing. You've painted yourself into a corner. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:30 AM Post #38 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Because that's not how the law needs to be written. The law doesn't have to say, "You can have a gun, but only if X." The law could say, "You can have a gun. If you have a gun, you must register it. If you have a gun and fail to register it, then you are guilty of a felony." In that way, the registration requirement would in no way infringe on the right to ownership, because the right to ownership is not conditioned on registration. Own anything you want ... just tell us about it. It's the failure to tell that's the crime, not the ownership per se. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:32 AM Post #39 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
Look Quirt, just drop the silly oneupsmanship. I have not painted myself into any corner since what Nixon was doing can be argued as something quite different from what Obama is doing. Interventionism is not coterminous with socialism. I used the word as it is commonly used, so "If that's what you mean" is hardly a meaningful retort. You claimed Nixon's policies were somehow socialist on a spectrum, and I simply pointed out that they were not, they were interventionist. You said they were not interventionist, but now you seem to be agreeing with me. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Apr 6 2009, 09:34 AM Post #40 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
So, how is Obama's economic policy Socialist, rather than "interventionist?" (or vice versa) The term, "interventionist" seems to be kind a chickensh!t semantics shell-game with the term, "Socialist." |
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Apr 6 2009, 09:37 AM Post #41 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Nixon was a socialist. Pure and simple. More than that he violated his oath of office as did most who came before him and since. |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:38 AM Post #42 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
Look at this formula and see if your position still holds: "You can have a gun, but only if X." Let X = "you must register it. If you have a gun and fail to register it, then you are guilty of a felony." I don't see how this can be anything but infringement since the point is that failing to register would make someone a criminal, which no otherwise upstanding citizen should be cast as. (IOW, the "legal" ownership in your model is certainly conditioned on registration). |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:39 AM Post #43 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
I refuse to play your usual semantic games. Either Nixon was interventionist, or socialist, in your world view. If he was interventionist, then so is Obama, because he's intervening in the markets to improve the economy, just as you defined it. And, if Obama is, in your view, acting in a socialist manner, then so was Nixon. You can't draw a principled line between the two. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Apr 6 2009, 09:40 AM Post #44 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
I guess what I'm seeing, in the long view of history, is that the United States has always been a more or less Socialist government, paired with a Capitalist society. Not so dissimilar from Japan, Sweden, Austria, England, etc. etc. etc.
|
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:41 AM Post #45 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
Not at all. Governmental interventionism can happen in a free market economy (such as preventing monopolies). Socialism is an economic model, interventionism is a policy. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 6 2009, 09:41 AM Post #46 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
No, your gun doesn't get taken away. You just go to jail. You still own the gun. Registration does not in any way stop you from owning ... unless, as I said, there is some right to refuse registration. One can also argue that laws against hunting, laws against murder, laws against discharging a gun in public, etc., are also "infringements" on gun ownership, since they preclude you from using the gun for its intended purpose. But it would be equally silly. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:46 AM Post #47 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
It is not a semantic game, Quirt. Interventionism is a policy. Socialism is an economic model. One can be a socialist and an interventionist, or a capitalist and interventionist (though probably not a hard line free market capitalist). Your "either /or" logic is fundamentally flawed. But I am not going get into with you since you are refusing to define your terms in any meaningful way. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Apr 6 2009, 09:46 AM Post #48 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
"keep AND bear arms" "Shall not be infringed". No need to parse it to death, and no need to engage in any "yeah, but". It's quite clearly worded. We have the right to keep and bear arms. The government does not have the right to infringe on that right. We don't get our rights from the Constitution. The Constitution tells government what its rights are. It plainly states that the government does not have the right to infringe on our natural right to keep and bear arms. Making people register their guns, enacting laws that limit how we keep and bear arms, is an infringement of our natural rights. Period. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| Frank_W | Apr 6 2009, 09:48 AM Post #49 |
![]()
Resident Misanthrope
|
Gun registration is odd to me. If I purchase a gun from a dealer, then the gun is registered as having been sold to me. I've traded guns with people before, had guns given to me, sold guns, and bought guns from other people, and there is no registration process for that, nor, as far as I know, is one required by any law. I suspect that at the time of sale from a registered dealer, that registering the gun is what protects the dealer, for insurance purposes, and also ensures that the gun is not being sold to someone who is a convicted felon, has felony charges pending, or who has a history of domestic violence. |
|
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Apr 6 2009, 09:49 AM Post #50 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
So you make otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals and throw them in jail for refusing to have their ownership rights infringed. Good grief. Is that the best you can come up with? 2nd Amendment +1 QuirtEvans 0 |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
![]() Our users say it best: "Zetaboards is the best forum service I have ever used." |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |









10:55 AM Jul 11