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| Ok, hell! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 10:35 PM (3,367 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | Apr 2 2009, 09:51 AM Post #151 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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There is actually an interesting ancient line of thought about that, recently revisited by Margaret Barker in her book "The Great Angel: The Story of Israel's Second God". But it seems more to the point that the message got garbled in the OT account. Obviously human consciousness has developed over the millennia as well, and we regularly accept what could not even be imagined 150 years ago. So in the same way of thinking, what might have been orally recounted and humanly acceptable in 800 BC regarding the relationship of God to Israel would have not been the same understanding in the first century. The parallel between human consciousness and mental development (Gebser, Piaget, etc) is an interesting area for me. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 2 2009, 09:53 AM Post #152 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I understand that is your perception of it from outside (and from what you've shared in the past, informed by your own experiences in your childhood). That has nothing to do with my experience of a love relationship with Christ, but I respect that you are on a different path than I am. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 2 2009, 09:55 AM Post #153 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That is not the Catholic Church's stance, nor the apostolic faith -- but again it has been certainly stated by protestants. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Apr 2 2009, 10:04 AM Post #154 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Well, I'm not God, man. I have no idea. I'll look around for the Pope's decree I'm referencing but I can't remember whether or not he got into the details of how this is possible. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 2 2009, 10:05 AM Post #155 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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That's just the thing, IT: If I were simply standing on the outside and trying to poke holes in Christianity, then yeah... That would be pretty ridiculous of me, wouldn't it? I'm glad you have that kind of loving relationship with Christ/Jesus/The Holy Spirit. I wanted that so much, when I was a kid... I spent hours and hours and hours in prayer, praying that God would help me change and/or heal my situation. I pored over and over the Bible. The pastor said once, that any unconfessed sin in our lives would result in a barrier between us and God, so I would lie awake all night, thinking back as far as I possibly could, trying desperately to remember the slightest bad thing that I'd ever done, so that I could confess it. I wanted that relationship... Other people would talk about this loving, personal relationship that they had. I would wonder if I were the antichrist, or maybe somehow cursed, or wonder what was wrong with me and why I couldn't have that? Christianity and the Christian God failed me. Again and again. I honestly tried my very best. For years. I am glad that Christianity works for others. I am pleased that they are gratified in their relationship with God, with Christ, and with the many avenues of service and outreach that present themselves. As for me: That's me in the spotlight... losing my religion.... ![]() And I've never experienced anything more heart-rending, more utterly destroying, a deeper loneliness or despair, than losing the very thing that I pinned all of my hopes on; the very God that I anchored to with all my heart and might... |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Apr 2 2009, 10:06 AM Post #156 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Yeah, I really have to find this article now. Either I'm totally off my rocker or the Pope said that atheists aren't necessarily Hell-bound when they pass on. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 2 2009, 10:12 AM Post #157 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Any brand of Christianity that I've run across, has stated that either one accepts Jesus the Christ as their personal lord and savior, or else they go to Hell when they die. Period. -The End. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Dewey | Apr 2 2009, 10:15 AM Post #158 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I've heard that stated by many catholics as well. But for the record, that is not the position of maninstream Protestantism, either. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| PattyP | Apr 2 2009, 10:16 AM Post #159 |
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Senior Carp
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I sure did, Dewey. Even picked up a couple of tidbits I wasn't aware of. I certainly would enjoy being a part of your congregation. |
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A tired dog is a good dog. "Dogs' lives are too short...their only fault, really." A.S. Turnbull | |
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| Dewey | Apr 2 2009, 10:18 AM Post #160 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"The pastor said once, that any unconfessed sin in our lives would result in a barrier between us and God, so I would lie awake all night, thinking back as far as I possibly could, trying desperately to remember the slightest bad thing that I'd ever done, so that I could confess it. I wanted that relationship... Other people would talk about this loving, personal relationship that they had. I would wonder if I were the antichrist, or maybe somehow cursed, or wonder what was wrong with me and why I couldn't have that? Christianity and the Christian God failed me. Again and again. I honestly tried my very best. For years." - Martin Luther, 1521 |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 2 2009, 10:19 AM Post #161 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Dewey, you're kidding. Martin Luther said that? No wai... I swear upon my honor, I just wrote that off the cuff, and I am wholly unfamiliar with the writings of Martin Luther. Wow...
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Dewey | Apr 2 2009, 10:20 AM Post #162 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Almost verbatim, Frank. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 2 2009, 10:21 AM Post #163 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Heh... Maybe there's hope for me, yet. Maybe I'm not nearly so much "damaged goods" as I thought.
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Dewey | Apr 2 2009, 10:23 AM Post #164 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'll find some quotes of his, but it will have to wait until late tonight, or maybe tomorrow. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 2 2009, 10:25 AM Post #165 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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I would sincerely appreciate that, Dewey. I know you have a sermon to prepare, so honestly... No rush. But I do find it enormously comforting and encouraging that a person of such spiritual stature went through the identical crisis of faith that I've been through. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Renauda | Apr 2 2009, 10:53 AM Post #166 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well Frank I wouldn't put too much wieght on Luther's eventual state of grace as evidenced by the following: First the background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies On Jews and Their Lies If you're at all interested in 16th Century reformers have a look into this poor sod's experience at the hand's of both Rome and in the end, Calvin's Geneva: Michael Servetus |
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| Frank_W | Apr 2 2009, 10:59 AM Post #167 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Interesting.... Servetus's understanding of the Trinity, is actually quite similar to my own. People talk about Jesus' return. Maybe Jesus returns as each person that has aligned their heart with the Logos, with Divine Love, loves and serves all of life. If there is any part of us or any force in the universe that is eternal, I know that it is love. All else fails in the face of it. Nothing else lasts. It is the gold left after the dross has been burnt away... |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Moonbat | Apr 2 2009, 12:52 PM Post #168 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Best wishes Dewey. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Moonbat | Apr 2 2009, 01:01 PM Post #169 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Which parts of us that are eternal? Well eternal is an awfully long time but if one has to choose then the mass/total energy locked up inside you is probably as good a bet as anything. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 2 2009, 01:13 PM Post #170 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Anybody notice Wacki has not been around? |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 2 2009, 03:34 PM Post #171 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Yeah... I don't think he's been well. I hope he's feeling better, and that either he or Carpe check in soon... Moobat, that is exactly what I was referencing. That mass/energy. It doesn't just die and end. Whether this part of me that says "I/Me/Mine" continues on as a spark of consciousness or just winks out like a snuffed candle-flame... Well, that's really the realm of mystics, theologians, and philosophers, I suppose. Pondering, pondering.... |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Dewey | Apr 2 2009, 08:23 PM Post #172 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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In July 1505, when almost twenty-two years of age, Luther joined the Augustinian monastery at Erfurt. Many causes led to this decision... according to his own later explanation, it was his harsh upbringing that took him to the monastery. His father had planned for him a career in law, and had not spared efforts so that he could have the necessary educaiotn. But Luther had no desire to become a lawyer, and therefore it is possible that Luther, though not entirely aware of his motives, was interposing a monastic vocation between his father's plans and his own inclinations. Upon hearing of his son's decision, the older Luther was incensed, and took his own good time in forgiving what appeared to him as a betrayal of his lofty goals for his son. ultimately, however, Luther was led to the monastery by a concern for his own salvation. The theme of salvation and damnation permeated the atmosphere in which he lived. The present life was little more than a preparation and testing for the one to come. it seemed foolish to devote oneself to gaining prestige and riches in the present, through the practice of law, to the detriment of life everlasting. Luther therefore intered th emonastery as a faithful child of the church, with the firm purpose of making use of the means of salvation offered by that church, of which the surest was the monastic life of renunciation. During the year of his novitiate, Luther was convinced that he had made a wise decision, for he felt happy and at peace with God. His superiors promptly recognized his unusual abilities, and decided that he should become a priest. Luther himself later wrote about the overwhelming experience of celebrating his first mass, when he was gripped by terror upon thinking that he was holding and offering nothing less than the very body of Christ. That feeling of terror then became increasingly frequent, for he felt unworthy of God's love, and he was not convinced that he was doing enough to be saved. God seemed to him a severe judge - like his father and his teachers at an earlier time - who, in the final judfment, would ask for an account and find him wanting. In order to be saved from the wrath of such a God, one must make use of all the means of grace offered by the church. But those means were not sufficient for someone as deeply religious, sincere, and passionate as Luther. Good works and the sacrament of penance were supposed to suffice for the young friar's need to be justified before God. But they did not. Luther had an overpowering sense of his own sinfulness, and the more he sought to overcome it the more he became aware of sin's sway over him. It is mistaken to suppose that he was not a good monk, or that his life was licentious or immoral. On the contrary, he sought to obey his monastic vows to the fullest. He would repeatedly punish his body, as recommended by the great teachers of monasticism. And he went to confession as often as possible. But such practices did not allay his fear of damnation. If for sins to be forgiven they had to be confessed, there was always the horrifying possibility that he might forget some sin, and thus lose the reward after which he was so diligently striving. He therefore spent hours listing and examining all his thoughts and actions, and the more he studied them the more sin he found in them. There were times when, at the very moment of leaving the confessional, he realized that there was some sin that he had not confessed. He would then grow anxious and even desperate, for sin was clearly more than conscious actions or thoughts. it was a condition, a way of being, something that went far beyond the individual sins one could confess to a priest. Thus, the very sacrament of penance, which was supposed to bring relief to his sense of sinfulness, actually exacerbated it, leaving him in a state of despair. His spiritual advisor then recommended the reading of the great teachers of mysticism. As we have already seen, towards the end of the Middle Ages (partly as a response to the corruption of the church) there was a great upsurge of mystical piety, which offered an alternative path to approach God. Luther resolved to follow that path, not because he doubted the authority of the church, but because that authority, in the person of his confessor, advised him to do do. Mysticism captivated him for a time - as had been the case earlier with monasticism. Perhaps here he would find the path to salvation. But soon that path became another blind alley. The mystics affirmed that all one had to do was to love God, and that all the rest would follow as a result of that love. This was a word of liberation for Luther, for it was no longer necessary to keep a strict account of all his sins, as he had so eagerly endeavored to do, to be rewarded only by failure and despair. But he soon discovered that loving God was not an easy matter. If God was like his father and his teachers, who had beaten him to the point of drawing blood, how could he love such a God? Eventually, Luther came to the terrifying conclusion that what he felt for God was not love, but hatred! There was no way out of such difficulties. In order to be saved, one must confess one's sins, and Luther had discovered that, in spite of his best efforts, his sin went far beyond what he could confess. If, as the mystics claimed, it sufficed to love God, this was no great help, for Luther had to adknoledge that he could not love the just God that demanded an account of all his actions. ... In 1513, he began to lecture on the Psalms. Since he had spent years reciting the Psalter, always within the context of the liturgical year - which centers on the main events in the life of Christ - Luther interpreted the Psalms Christologically. When the Psalmist speaks in the first person, Luther took this to be Christ speaking about himself. Therefore, in the Psalter, Luther saw Christ undergoing trials similar to his own. This was the beginning of his great discovery. ... (but) while he found consolation in Christ's sufferings, this did not suffice to cure his anguish and despair. The great discovery probably came in 1515, when Luther began lecturing on the Epistle to the Romans. He later declared that it was in the first chapter of that epistle that he found the solution to his difficulties. That solution did not come easily. It was not simply a matter of opening the Bible one day and reading that "the just shall live by faith." As he tells the story, the great discovery followed a long struggle and bitter anguish, for Romans 1:17 begins by declaring that, in the gospel, "the righteousness of God is revealed." According to this text, the gospel is the revelation of the righteousness - the justice - of God. But it was precisely the justice of God that Luther found unbearable. How could such a message be gospel - "good news"? For Luther, good news would have been that God is not just, meaning that God does not judge sinners. But, in Romans 1:17, the good news and the justice of God are indissolubly linked. Luther hated the very phrase, "the justice of God," and spent day and night seeking to understand the relationship between the two parts of that single verse, which, after declaring that in the godpel "the justice of God is revealed," affirms that "the righteous shall live by faith." The answer was surprising. Luther came to the conclusion that the "justice of God" does not refer, as he had been taught, to the punishment of sinners. It means rather that the "justice" or "righteousness" of the righteous is not their own, but God's. The "righteousness of God" is that which is given to those who live by faith. It is given, not because they are righteous, nor because they fulfill the demands of divine justice, but simply because God wishes to give it. Thus, Luther's doctrine of "justification by faith" does not mean that what God demands of us is faith, as if this were something we have to do or achieve, and which God then rewards. It means rather that both faith and justification are the work of God, a free gift to sinners. As a result of this discovery, Luther tells us, "I felt that I had been born anew and that the gates of heaven had been opened. The whole of Scripture gained a new meaning. And from that pont on the phrase "the justice of God" no longer filled me with hatred, but rather became unspeakably sweet by virtue of a great love." - Justo Gonzalez, "The Story of Christianity, vol. 2: The Reformation to the Present Day" |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| blondie | Apr 2 2009, 08:50 PM Post #173 |
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Bull-Carp
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I've wanted to say this for a few days now Mik. I hesitate because this is so personal. I imagine Wacki's in a lot of pain. I truly hope he's getting enough drugs to snow him through this now. Comfort is so important. I've sure been thinking of you Wacki !! ... of you too Carpe. 'Have been listening to your music lots. This will live on for me. Thank you so much for allowing us into your lives now. Believe it or not, I'm learning much from you 2 now. I'm very grateful. Katie. |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 2 2009, 09:20 PM Post #174 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Wacki and Carpe and family are in my prayers. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| blondie | Apr 3 2009, 04:59 AM Post #175 |
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Bull-Carp
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Yes, they are in mine too. |
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That's me in the spotlight... losing my religion.... 

No wai... I swear upon my honor, I just wrote that off the cuff, and I am wholly unfamiliar with the writings of Martin Luther. Wow...


I hope he's feeling better, and that either he or Carpe check in soon...

10:56 AM Jul 11