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Did the historical jesus really exist?
Topic Started: Feb 25 2009, 06:55 PM (745 Views)
CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
OK, I know that faith is subjective, but I am talking about the historical jesus - the person.

Aside from the bible, there are a few famous Jewish and Roman sources, but I am not sure how reliable and proof worthy they are.

So, is there proof that Jesus really existed as a man? Not that he was divine, but just alive. Is it provable? Please cite your example and reason.
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
[edit]

Could be.
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George K
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Finally
Yes, there's no question that Jesus of Nazareth, the man, existed. The Roman historian Josephus comments on his trial and crucifixion. He is an unbiased source. Of course, he says nothing about preaching, divinity, etc.

But Jesus?

Yep, he was a real guy.

Josephus
Quote:
 
Josephus includes information about individuals, groups, customs and geographical places. His writings provide a significant, extra-Biblical account of the post-Exilic period of the Maccabees, the Hasmonean dynasty, and the rise of Herod the Great. He makes references to the Sadducees, Jewish High Priests of the time, Pharisees and Essenes, the Herodian Temple, Quirinius' census and the Zealots, and to such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Agrippa I and Agrippa II, John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, and a disputed reference to Jesus. He is an important source for studies of immediate post-Temple Judaism (and, thus, the context of early Christianity).
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
One way a person can show himself to be a participant in the community is this:

instead of constantly starting threads, leave the thread starting to others and spend your time joining in on discussions that are already going on. It shows that you're joining in instead of circling around the edges trying to figure out how to get some attention.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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CrashTest
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Hey Larry, if you don't like the show, don't buy a ticket.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Kiss my ass, troll.


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Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
What George said.

Yes, he exists.
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NAK
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Of course he did does (thanks for the reminder, Mark). Read the Bible, dude! ;)

As per George's comments, though, he was an historical figure. Even many encyclopedias (and the occasional dictionary) will cite him merely as a teacher who's life formed the basis of Christianity. He exists as surely as Muhammad did.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
No idea but here's wiki on the topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory#Early_non-Christian_references_to_Jesus

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
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jon-nyc
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George K
Feb 25 2009, 06:59 PM
Yes, there's no question that Jesus of Nazareth, the man, existed. The Roman historian Josephus comments on his trial and crucifixion. He is an unbiased source. Of course, he says nothing about preaching, divinity, etc.

Quote:
 
Josephus includes ... and a disputed reference to Jesus.
Apparently there are questions.
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Phlebas
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CrashTest
Feb 25 2009, 06:55 PM
Please cite your example and reason.
Because I saw him play, and I have his card.

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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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jon-nyc
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:lol:
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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Finally
jon-nyc
Feb 26 2009, 02:13 AM
George K
Feb 25 2009, 06:59 PM
Yes, there's no question that Jesus of Nazareth, the man, existed. The Roman historian Josephus comments on his trial and crucifixion. He is an unbiased source. Of course, he says nothing about preaching, divinity, etc.

Quote:
 
Josephus includes ... and a disputed reference to Jesus.
Apparently there are questions.
Read it again, Jon, this time not ignoring words:
Quote:
 
Josephus includes information about individuals, groups, customs and geographical places. His writings provide a significant, extra-Biblical account of the post-Exilic period of the Maccabees, the Hasmonean dynasty, and the rise of Herod the Great. He makes references to the Sadducees, Jewish High Priests of the time, Pharisees and Essenes, the Herodian Temple, Quirinius' census and the Zealots, and to such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Agrippa I and Agrippa II, John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, and a disputed reference to Jesus. He is an important source for studies of immediate post-Temple Judaism (and, thus, the context of early Christianity).


One (as in the word "a") reference is disputed. The others are not. The article is talking about Josephus' reference, not the existence of Jesus.

Jesus....
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Only part of Josephus' comments regarding Jesus have been disputed - portions which make a claim of his divinity have often been considered a later addition by Christian editors. Following is the Josephus quote, with the disputed words capitalized:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Even removing the disputed lines, Josephus does attest to the historical existence of Jesus.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

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jon-nyc
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Right, but in categorically stating that there's no question he existed, you cite a single example, that is in fact disputed.

(for the record I have no informed opinion on the existence of the historical jesus, but I suspect he did in fact exist)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Isn't it possible that Josephus' writings were tampered with by early Christians or others? It's something that certain groups in the same geographical area seem to excel at in modern times. Also, the place was under Italian government rule, and we all know how trustworthy those guys are if there's a few pieces of silver on offer.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
John D'Oh
Feb 26 2009, 04:33 AM
Isn't it possible that Josephus' writings were tampered with by early Christians or others? It's something that certain groups in the same geographical area seem to excel at in modern times. Also, the place was under Italian government rule, and we all know how trustworthy those guys are if there's a few pieces of silver on offer.
Sure, blame it all on the Italians.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Why would some people want so badly for there not to have been a historical Jesus?

To echo George's sentiment, Jesus.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired." (Tacitus, "Annals")

Josephus also makes a second reference to the death of James, the "brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ" in his "Antiquities."

Tactitus and Josephus are the two primary extant non-biblical references to the historical existence of Jesus. That's not a lot, but it's more than many other people we consider to have actually existed without question. Short of turning up Jesus' old high school report cards, I'm glad to accept the word of two of the greatest historians of antiquity.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Maybe he has a Hawaiian birth certificate. We can ask their Secretary of State.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Feb 26 2009, 04:33 AM
Isn't it possible that Josephus' writings were tampered with by early Christians or others? It's something that certain groups in the same geographical area seem to excel at in modern times. Also, the place was under Italian government rule, and we all know how trustworthy those guys are if there's a few pieces of silver on offer.
The text of the famous Josephus paragraph, as found in a tenth-century Arabic edition:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders."
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Dewey
Feb 26 2009, 04:53 AM
John D'Oh
Feb 26 2009, 04:33 AM
Isn't it possible that Josephus' writings were tampered with by early Christians or others? It's something that certain groups in the same geographical area seem to excel at in modern times. Also, the place was under Italian government rule, and we all know how trustworthy those guys are if there's a few pieces of silver on offer.
The text of the famous Josephus paragraph, as found in a tenth-century Arabic edition:

"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders."
I was joking :lol:

Quote:
 
Why would some people want so badly for there not to have been a historical Jesus?


And to answer Mik's question - there's nothing more satisfying than making other people look stupid. Particularly when you're as dumb as I am.

To be serious, I don't think there's much doubt that a Jesus existed. How much of the Bible is actually true is of course open to debate - my totally heretical opinion is that a significant chunk of the stories were based on genuine occurrences, but that the details were distorted, either unintentionally or intentionally, sometimes to demonstrate the fulfillment of prophecy, sometimes just because it was what the author believed, and sometimes, due to the phenomenon commonly known as Chinese whispers - a folk tale growing in the telling.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nazareth, Israel (USA Today) - In a stunning find destined to create shockwaves throughout world history, archaeologists announced today that they have discovered what they believe is the high school yearbook of Jesus Christ.

The find, made while excavating a typical small laborer's dwelling in the ancient sector of this now-bustling modern city, astounded both archaeological and religious authorities.

Jesus, or Yeshua, was is the alleged founder of the worldwide religion called Christianity. The "Bible," the sacred religious texts of Christianity, identify that Jesus grew up in Nazareth.

The high school yearbook was uncovered in one of the rooms of the laborer's house, which was largely intact, surviving underneath later structures built on top of it. The house was discovered when the owner of the building above was doing some gardening, and a section of the old house roof collapsed, causing a small sinkhole.

"It was really something, I'll tell you," said Shlomo Eichenlaub, the owner of the house since 1978. "One minte I was weeding my turnips, and the next thing you know, half the garden was gone."

State archaeologists were called to the scene almost immediately, and they allowed Eichenlaub to reclaim what was left of his vegetable crop before cordoning off the site. There was no information available about where Mr. Eichenlaub and his family would be staying during the excavation.

While the investigation is continuing, the archeology team decided to make this amazing discovery public as soon as possible. Carbon dating of the yearbook places it in the timeframe of 50 BC - 100 AD.

Jesus was believed by many to have lived between approximately 4 BC - 30 AD.

Archaeologists showed images of several pages of the yearbook at a press conference held yesterday in Jerusalem. They also showed several examples of handwritten text, written on the front pages within the yearbook in Aramaic, the common language spoken in Nazareth at the time. They offered a translation of one of the handwritten passages:

"Hey, Yeshua, you're a good friend and a great guy. It was fun growing up with you - man, you just never knew what you were going to say next! Remember the fun we had in Mr. Eliazar's Algebra Class? Or the time we broke you Dad's big bow saw when we were clowning around and bending it to make music? He was so mad at us! And I'll never forget those times we'd sneak out late at night and go camel-tipping. Well, best of luck in whatever you do. I know you said something about being a rabbi - I think you'd make a pretty good one, but I have to be honest, you don't sound like any rabbi I've ever met. Well anyway, good luck. Your bud, Yacob."

While many scholars are intrigued, it is unclear how this finding will affect the world's perception of Jesus. Meanwhile, PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, has issued a press statement denouncing the reference to camel-tipping as "just another barbaric example of humans' mistreatment of the animal kingdom."
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
:lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
So, there.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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