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What's a Terminator to do?
Topic Started: Feb 17 2009, 06:43 PM (343 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Terminate, I guess...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5755246.ece
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Hmmm...didn't see one mention of illegal immigrants being an issue. Maybe it's not. I dunno. Did notice that the state budget doubled in over 10 years - I guess from about 65 billion now to 131 billion - yet they struggle to cut 15 billion.

Oregon is in similar condition - 20 years of Democrat governors has seen the state budget increase exponentially. Yet no one can seem to cut a single program or entitlement.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I would think the illegals would be a huge issue. A study at Rice University a few years ago put the cost to California at 18.1 billion dollars/yr.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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George K
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Finally
About 15% of the budget...
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Of course, to be fair, you'd want to estimate what illegals add to the California economy.

And you'd want to be fair, wouldn't you?

And then, you'd want to estimate, if you cut back on social services to illegals, what percentage of them would leave. Because there are plenty of news stories going around about illegal immigrants leaving the U.S. because of poor economic conditions here. Like this one:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,409221,00.html

Or this one:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123446646016878579.html

Or this one:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E7D61731F93AA35752C0A962958260

Because you'd want to consider all of those factors, right? You wouldn't just use the costs without estimating the benefits, because that would be demagoguery, and you'd never do that, right?

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
From Quirt's links

Fox Story:

Quote:
 
"Remittances, which is the money immigrants send home to Mexico, have gone down dramatically over the past year.


Hey, more money staying in the US. That's a good thing.

WSJ:
Quote:
 
After a historic immigration wave, many Mexicans and other Latin Americans are preparing to return to their homelands amid the deepening recession here. Mexicans who reside in the U.S. sought Mexican citizenship for their U.S.-born children in record numbers last year.



I can't help but notice this story never mentions the legal status of these immigrants... :confused: Oh well. Less competition for jobs, will help ease the unemployment for those here legally, helping those here to find work easier, and also helping keep wages from dropping to far. Again, another good thing.

Of course, one thing that I haven't seen in any of these articles is any evidence of the economic good these illegal immigrants bring to the table as Mr. Evans asserts. In fact, the NY Times points to the negatives.

NY Times:
Quote:
 
the Mexican immigrants are now widely perceived as taking jobs away from Americans, causing street crime, graffiti and housing decay and for placing huge financial burdens on school districts, welfare agencies and other public services.


Quote:
 
"It's not as easy to get jobs and welfare benefits as it used to be," he added. "
Yeah, those welfare benefits really add to the greater common good.

Still not seeing anything about how the slowdown in illegal immigration, and the exodus of illegals here already is anything but a good thing, economically speaking.

Perhaps, Mr. Evans, as apparantly I am wrong on so many issues, you can point out to me where any of these articles supplies evidence to support your assertion, and then you can explain it to me with small syllables, please.



The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Luke's Dad
Feb 18 2009, 07:42 AM
From Quirt's links

Fox Story:

Quote:
 
"Remittances, which is the money immigrants send home to Mexico, have gone down dramatically over the past year.


Hey, more money staying in the US. That's a good thing.

WSJ:
Quote:
 
After a historic immigration wave, many Mexicans and other Latin Americans are preparing to return to their homelands amid the deepening recession here. Mexicans who reside in the U.S. sought Mexican citizenship for their U.S.-born children in record numbers last year.



I can't help but notice this story never mentions the legal status of these immigrants... :confused: Oh well. Less competition for jobs, will help ease the unemployment for those here legally, helping those here to find work easier, and also helping keep wages from dropping to far. Again, another good thing.

Of course, one thing that I haven't seen in any of these articles is any evidence of the economic good these illegal immigrants bring to the table as Mr. Evans asserts. In fact, the NY Times points to the negatives.

NY Times:
Quote:
 
the Mexican immigrants are now widely perceived as taking jobs away from Americans, causing street crime, graffiti and housing decay and for placing huge financial burdens on school districts, welfare agencies and other public services.


Quote:
 
"It's not as easy to get jobs and welfare benefits as it used to be," he added. "
Yeah, those welfare benefits really add to the greater common good.

Still not seeing anything about how the slowdown in illegal immigration, and the exodus of illegals here already is anything but a good thing, economically speaking.

Perhaps, Mr. Evans, as apparantly I am wrong on so many issues, you can point out to me where any of these articles supplies evidence to support your assertion, and then you can explain it to me with small syllables, please.



Small syllables?

How much do illegals add to the Cali economy?

There you go, no word longer than three syllables.

If you were paying attention ... which, obviously, you were not ... I cited those articles for the proposition (sorry, that's four syllables, does it exceed your grasp?) that there is a flow of illegals headed home, because of poor economic conditions here. And do you know how you'd know that? Because that's what I said.

Right here:

Quote:
 
there are plenty of news stories going around about illegal immigrants leaving the U.S. because of poor economic conditions here. Like this one:


I didn't cite it to show how much economic benefit illegals generate.

You can handle an argument with more than one part, right?

So, again, here's the argument:

1. Illegals generate some economic benefit.

2. Illegals also cost money, for social services.

3. You have to balance the cost against the benefit.

4. If you cut social services, more illegals might go home.

5. How much savings would the cuts result in?

6. How much would the economic benefits of illegals be reduced if more of them went home?

There, small syllables, just like you requested.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
QuirtEvans
Feb 18 2009, 08:49 AM
How much do illegals add to the Cali economy?

There you go, no word longer than three syllables.
Heh. And you said they didn't teach me to count in medical school. :silly:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Luke's Dad
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George K
Feb 18 2009, 08:51 AM
QuirtEvans
Feb 18 2009, 08:49 AM
How much do illegals add to the Cali economy?

There you go, no word longer than three syllables.
Heh. And you said they didn't teach me to count in medical school. :silly:
:lol2:
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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George K
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Finally
http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=609198&t=363474
Quote:
 
Never let doctors do math, even simple math like counting to four. You don't even wind up with the right number of digits in the answer.


At least you got the right number of digits. ;)
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quirt, don't tell me you're actually arguing that flooding the country with illegal immigrants from Mexico actually benefits the country.....

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Luke's Dad
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Quote:
 
So, again, here's the argument:

1. Illegals generate some economic benefit.



Unsubshtanchiated (did me spel tat rite?)

The rest of the argument is moot until that point is substantiated. You just make the claim and move on. It doesn't work like that. You can't do a cost benefit analysis without first determining the cost. None of the articles you posted have shown a cost to the state for the reduced immigration and exodus of current immigrants. Until you show this cost, the rest isn't worth debating.

The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Feb 18 2009, 08:51 AM
QuirtEvans
Feb 18 2009, 08:49 AM
How much do illegals add to the Cali economy?

There you go, no word longer than three syllables.
Heh. And you said they didn't teach me to count in medical school. :silly:
Got me. :whome:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Luke's Dad
Feb 18 2009, 09:01 AM
Quote:
 
So, again, here's the argument:

1. Illegals generate some economic benefit.



Unsubshtanchiated (did me spel tat rite?)

The rest of the argument is moot until that point is substantiated. .

Are you seriously claiming there's no benefit? Zero?

Absolutely none?

If you are, there's no point in continuing the discussion, because you're nuttier than a fruitcake.

There are many rational points you could make. That it's impossible to value the benefit. That the benefit is small. That the NET benefit is negative, because of the associated costs. All of those are arguable, but they're legitimate points.

But denying that there's ANY benefit? That's simply foolish.

Here's an easy one. There aren't enough lettuce pickers or toilet cleaners or restaurant staff, without illegals. They're doing jobs Americans don't want to do. Which is why even the Great and Powerful W supported a guest worker program.

(Oh, and by the way ... I'm AGAINST illegal immigration. I'm FOR strong deterrents. But I'm also for intelligent arguments about why it's bad, not nonsense like you've tried to argue above.)
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Feb 18 2009, 08:58 AM
Quirt, don't tell me you're actually arguing that flooding the country with illegal immigrants from Mexico actually benefits the country.....

Read carefully.

I didn't say that.

I said there are benefits, and there are costs, and that talking about only the costs is silly, because there are benefits too. You have to weigh them both.

Jolly's point, echoed by George, only talks about the costs, and ignore the benefits side of the equation. If you owned restaurants or lettuce farms or cleaning services instead of video stores, I promise you you'd see clearly that the benefits side of the equation is not zero.

Now, the whole equation may still be negative, but you'll never know that until you try to compare the costs and the benefits.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Oh, and LD, I notice you skipped over the part where you totally misread the proposition for which I was citing those new stories, in your rush to go snarky.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
QuirtEvans
Feb 18 2009, 09:36 AM
Oh, and LD, I notice you skipped over the part where you totally misread the proposition for which I was citing those new stories, in your rush to go snarky.
My first comment in this thread was "15% of the budget"

Your response was:
Quote:
 
Of course, to be fair, you'd want to estimate what illegals add to the California economy.

And you'd want to be fair, wouldn't you?

And then, you'd want to estimate, if you cut back on social services to illegals, what percentage of them would leave. Because there are plenty of news stories going around about illegal immigrants leaving the U.S. because of poor economic conditions here. Like this one:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,409221,00.html

Or this one:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123446646016878579.html

Or this one:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E7D61731F93AA35752C0A962958260

Because you'd want to consider all of those factors, right? You wouldn't just use the costs without estimating the benefits, because that would be demagoguery, and you'd never do that, right?


Where's my snarkometer(tm) when I need it? Get some coffee, Quirt. Or maybe lay off of it today.

Whatever works.


A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Feb 18 2009, 09:48 AM
QuirtEvans
Feb 18 2009, 09:36 AM
Oh, and LD, I notice you skipped over the part where you totally misread the proposition for which I was citing those new stories, in your rush to go snarky.
My first comment in this thread was "15% of the budget"

Your response was:
Quote:
 
Of course, to be fair, you'd want to estimate what illegals add to the California economy.

And you'd want to be fair, wouldn't you?

And then, you'd want to estimate, if you cut back on social services to illegals, what percentage of them would leave. Because there are plenty of news stories going around about illegal immigrants leaving the U.S. because of poor economic conditions here. Like this one:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,409221,00.html

Or this one:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123446646016878579.html

Or this one:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E7D61731F93AA35752C0A962958260

Because you'd want to consider all of those factors, right? You wouldn't just use the costs without estimating the benefits, because that would be demagoguery, and you'd never do that, right?


Where's my snarkometer(tm) when I need it? Get some coffee, Quirt. Or maybe lay off of it today.

Whatever works.


Hey, I never said I wasn't snarky to you and Jolly. Jolly injected a judgment about illegal immigration based on statistics from only one side of the equation, and you implicitly backed him up, by pointing out what a big percentage of the California budget such services are, without even looking at the possible benefits. By now, you know me well enough to know that I'm not going to let that sort of foolishness pass without remark.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Luke's Dad
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QuirtEvans
Feb 18 2009, 09:28 AM
Luke's Dad
Feb 18 2009, 09:01 AM
Quote:
 
So, again, here's the argument:

1. Illegals generate some economic benefit.



Unsubshtanchiated (did me spel tat rite?)

The rest of the argument is moot until that point is substantiated. .

Are you seriously claiming there's no benefit? Zero?

Absolutely none?

If you are, there's no point in continuing the discussion, because you're nuttier than a fruitcake.

There are many rational points you could make. That it's impossible to value the benefit. That the benefit is small. That the NET benefit is negative, because of the associated costs. All of those are arguable, but they're legitimate points.

But denying that there's ANY benefit? That's simply foolish.

Here's an easy one. There aren't enough lettuce pickers or toilet cleaners or restaurant staff, without illegals. They're doing jobs Americans don't want to do. Which is why even the Great and Powerful W supported a guest worker program.

(Oh, and by the way ... I'm AGAINST illegal immigration. I'm FOR strong deterrents. But I'm also for intelligent arguments about why it's bad, not nonsense like you've tried to argue above.)
Nonsense? Let me spell it out for you.

1) Nowhere have I made a claim that there is no economic benefit to illegal immigration. I have simply asked you to substantiate your claim that there was.

2) You still haven't. You've simply made another claim to back up a previous claim, with no evidence to support either. Without verified numbers to back up this claim, it is still unsubstantiated.

3) The "nonsense" that I supposedly argued came straight from the articles you posted.


"Not enough lettuce pickers, toilet cleaners, or restaurant staff". Wow. That says alot, right there, Quirt. But, personal views aside, do you honestly believe that if there were no illegal immigrants, that lettuce would go unpicked? Toilets, uncleaned? No more Chili's Pecan Crusted Salmon? That is a claim that I do dispute. Especially in light of the rising unemployment, lower wages, and the nature of the under the table pay for these type of jobs. You also forgot a huge area of employment in this, construction.

Here's some empirical data to dispute your claim about not enough "lettuce pickers". A couple of quick facts"

Quote:
 
Of the 4.1 million new immigrant workers, between 1.4 and 2.7 million are estimated to be illegal immigrants. This means that illegal immigrants accounted for up to 56 percent of the net increase in civilian employment in the United States over the past five years.

Between 2000 and 2005, the number of young (16 to 34) native-born men who were employed declined by 1.7 million; at the same time, the number of new male immigrant workers increased by 1.9 million.

Multivariate statistical analyses show that the probability of teens and young adults (20-24) being employed was negatively affected by the number of new immigrant workers (legal and illegal) in their state.



I suppose you could argue the lower wages provided economic benefot, due to lower prices, right? But You Would Be Wrong.

So, where's the benefit? I'm still waiting.

BTW, I do believe that some small benefit could eb found, but it will be difficult to quantify, and would still be a net negative when weighed with the costs.

The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I'm sure you're capable of doing your own research about the benefits of illegal immigration. Here's a start for you:

Quote:
 
illegal immigrants tend to have low skill levels, which means they end up in jobs in agriculture, construction, household services, landscaping, low-end manufacturing, or restaurants and lodging. Employers in these industries (and consumers of the goods these industries produce) are primarily the ones who benefit from illegal immigration. In a recent study, Patricia Cortes, a graduate student at MIT, finds that U.S. cities that have higher larger immigrant inflows have lower prices for housekeeping, gardening, and other labor intensive services. Ten percent more immigration lowers prices for these services by about 1.3%.

Second, illegal immigrants, by virtue of their low income levels and their tenuous attachment to the legal economy, don't pay all that much in taxes. Yet their kids still attend school and their U.S.-born kids still get access to Medicare. What does this mean for the net fiscal consequences of illegal immigration? The Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-immigration think tank, estimates that the short-run net fiscal impact of illegal immigration is negative, on the order of $10 billion in 2002, or 0.09% of U.S. GDP in that year. This is not a big number.

As with immigration overall, what upsets people is not the aggregate impact of illegal immigration, which, as with legal immigration, seems to be more or less a wash. It is that the benefits of illegal immigration are enjoyed by one group -- the employers who hire them (and the consumers of their services) -- while the costs are incurred by other groups -- low-skilled workers and taxpayers in states where illegal immigrants reside.


http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115100948305787940-tA5PP0Ya_9U0AlXBQQhnaDyMIYc_20060725.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

Even people who think it's a net negative agree.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

Oh, and that latter study points out that it's incredibly difficult to reduce the services received by illegal households ... because the kids (who are the primary recipients of services) are legal.

Quote:
 
Reducing the costs illegals impose would probably be the most difficult of the three options because illegal households already impose only about 46 percent as much in costs on the federal government as other households. Thus, the amount of money that can be saved by curtailing their use of public services even further is probably quite limited. Moreover, the fact that benefits are often received on behalf of their U.S.-citizen children means that it is very difficult to prevent illegal households from accessing the programs they do.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
And you still haven't admitted that you totally misrepresented the point that I was trying to make in presenting those stories.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
I think everybody here knows what the point you were trying to make with those stories. Especially when put in context with the entirety of your post.

Quote:
 
The Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-immigration think tank, estimates that the short-run net fiscal impact of illegal immigration is negative, on the order of $10 billion in 2002, or 0.09% of U.S. GDP in that year.


Other studies have shown the costs to be at least $9 Billion for California alone. And that's not taking into account other expenses that tie into illegal immigration such as crime, incarceration, etc...

It's a moot point as they are here, and there are some obligations that fall upon us. Higher moral principles that we as a nation should try to live up to. But it doesn't change the fact that illegal immigration is a significant factor in the financial problems facing CA, and it's also a factor throughout the US, and it doesn't need to be. It's far past time for either stricter enforcement of the laws on the books, or reform.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
At some point, no matter what your moral principles are, there will be no money.

No money, no services....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Just wondering when our government will realize that at it's current size and burn rate, it is unsustainable.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Feb 18 2009, 06:24 PM
Just wondering when our government will realize that at it's current size and burn rate, it is unsustainable.
Maybe they've already realized it, in the foggy way something that is not really thought about can be "realized". And maybe it's a complete non-factor, to both the electorate and to the elected.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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