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| What's a Terminator to do? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 17 2009, 06:43 PM (343 Views) | |
| Jolly | Feb 17 2009, 06:43 PM Post #1 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Terminate, I guess... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5755246.ece |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Kincaid | Feb 17 2009, 09:44 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Hmmm...didn't see one mention of illegal immigrants being an issue. Maybe it's not. I dunno. Did notice that the state budget doubled in over 10 years - I guess from about 65 billion now to 131 billion - yet they struggle to cut 15 billion. Oregon is in similar condition - 20 years of Democrat governors has seen the state budget increase exponentially. Yet no one can seem to cut a single program or entitlement. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Jolly | Feb 18 2009, 05:11 AM Post #3 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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I would think the illegals would be a huge issue. A study at Rice University a few years ago put the cost to California at 18.1 billion dollars/yr. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| George K | Feb 18 2009, 05:13 AM Post #4 |
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Finally
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About 15% of the budget... |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 05:38 AM Post #5 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Of course, to be fair, you'd want to estimate what illegals add to the California economy. And you'd want to be fair, wouldn't you? And then, you'd want to estimate, if you cut back on social services to illegals, what percentage of them would leave. Because there are plenty of news stories going around about illegal immigrants leaving the U.S. because of poor economic conditions here. Like this one: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,409221,00.html Or this one: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123446646016878579.html Or this one: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E01E7D61731F93AA35752C0A962958260 Because you'd want to consider all of those factors, right? You wouldn't just use the costs without estimating the benefits, because that would be demagoguery, and you'd never do that, right? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Feb 18 2009, 07:42 AM Post #6 |
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Emperor Pengin
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From Quirt's links Fox Story:
Hey, more money staying in the US. That's a good thing. WSJ:
I can't help but notice this story never mentions the legal status of these immigrants... Oh well. Less competition for jobs, will help ease the unemployment for those here legally, helping those here to find work easier, and also helping keep wages from dropping to far. Again, another good thing.Of course, one thing that I haven't seen in any of these articles is any evidence of the economic good these illegal immigrants bring to the table as Mr. Evans asserts. In fact, the NY Times points to the negatives. NY Times:
Yeah, those welfare benefits really add to the greater common good. Still not seeing anything about how the slowdown in illegal immigration, and the exodus of illegals here already is anything but a good thing, economically speaking. Perhaps, Mr. Evans, as apparantly I am wrong on so many issues, you can point out to me where any of these articles supplies evidence to support your assertion, and then you can explain it to me with small syllables, please. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 08:49 AM Post #7 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Small syllables? How much do illegals add to the Cali economy? There you go, no word longer than three syllables. If you were paying attention ... which, obviously, you were not ... I cited those articles for the proposition (sorry, that's four syllables, does it exceed your grasp?) that there is a flow of illegals headed home, because of poor economic conditions here. And do you know how you'd know that? Because that's what I said. Right here:
I didn't cite it to show how much economic benefit illegals generate. You can handle an argument with more than one part, right? So, again, here's the argument: 1. Illegals generate some economic benefit. 2. Illegals also cost money, for social services. 3. You have to balance the cost against the benefit. 4. If you cut social services, more illegals might go home. 5. How much savings would the cuts result in? 6. How much would the economic benefits of illegals be reduced if more of them went home? There, small syllables, just like you requested. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| George K | Feb 18 2009, 08:51 AM Post #8 |
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Finally
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Heh. And you said they didn't teach me to count in medical school.
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Luke's Dad | Feb 18 2009, 08:56 AM Post #9 |
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Emperor Pengin
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| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| George K | Feb 18 2009, 08:57 AM Post #10 |
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Finally
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http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=609198&t=363474
At least you got the right number of digits.
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Larry | Feb 18 2009, 08:58 AM Post #11 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Quirt, don't tell me you're actually arguing that flooding the country with illegal immigrants from Mexico actually benefits the country..... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Luke's Dad | Feb 18 2009, 09:01 AM Post #12 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Unsubshtanchiated (did me spel tat rite?) The rest of the argument is moot until that point is substantiated. You just make the claim and move on. It doesn't work like that. You can't do a cost benefit analysis without first determining the cost. None of the articles you posted have shown a cost to the state for the reduced immigration and exodus of current immigrants. Until you show this cost, the rest isn't worth debating. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 09:23 AM Post #13 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Got me.
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| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 09:28 AM Post #14 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Are you seriously claiming there's no benefit? Zero? Absolutely none? If you are, there's no point in continuing the discussion, because you're nuttier than a fruitcake. There are many rational points you could make. That it's impossible to value the benefit. That the benefit is small. That the NET benefit is negative, because of the associated costs. All of those are arguable, but they're legitimate points. But denying that there's ANY benefit? That's simply foolish. Here's an easy one. There aren't enough lettuce pickers or toilet cleaners or restaurant staff, without illegals. They're doing jobs Americans don't want to do. Which is why even the Great and Powerful W supported a guest worker program. (Oh, and by the way ... I'm AGAINST illegal immigration. I'm FOR strong deterrents. But I'm also for intelligent arguments about why it's bad, not nonsense like you've tried to argue above.) |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 09:35 AM Post #15 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Read carefully. I didn't say that. I said there are benefits, and there are costs, and that talking about only the costs is silly, because there are benefits too. You have to weigh them both. Jolly's point, echoed by George, only talks about the costs, and ignore the benefits side of the equation. If you owned restaurants or lettuce farms or cleaning services instead of video stores, I promise you you'd see clearly that the benefits side of the equation is not zero. Now, the whole equation may still be negative, but you'll never know that until you try to compare the costs and the benefits. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 09:36 AM Post #16 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Oh, and LD, I notice you skipped over the part where you totally misread the proposition for which I was citing those new stories, in your rush to go snarky. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| George K | Feb 18 2009, 09:48 AM Post #17 |
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Finally
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My first comment in this thread was "15% of the budget" Your response was:
Where's my snarkometer(tm) when I need it? Get some coffee, Quirt. Or maybe lay off of it today. Whatever works. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 09:55 AM Post #18 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Hey, I never said I wasn't snarky to you and Jolly. Jolly injected a judgment about illegal immigration based on statistics from only one side of the equation, and you implicitly backed him up, by pointing out what a big percentage of the California budget such services are, without even looking at the possible benefits. By now, you know me well enough to know that I'm not going to let that sort of foolishness pass without remark. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Feb 18 2009, 10:39 AM Post #19 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Nonsense? Let me spell it out for you. 1) Nowhere have I made a claim that there is no economic benefit to illegal immigration. I have simply asked you to substantiate your claim that there was. 2) You still haven't. You've simply made another claim to back up a previous claim, with no evidence to support either. Without verified numbers to back up this claim, it is still unsubstantiated. 3) The "nonsense" that I supposedly argued came straight from the articles you posted. "Not enough lettuce pickers, toilet cleaners, or restaurant staff". Wow. That says alot, right there, Quirt. But, personal views aside, do you honestly believe that if there were no illegal immigrants, that lettuce would go unpicked? Toilets, uncleaned? No more Chili's Pecan Crusted Salmon? That is a claim that I do dispute. Especially in light of the rising unemployment, lower wages, and the nature of the under the table pay for these type of jobs. You also forgot a huge area of employment in this, construction. Here's some empirical data to dispute your claim about not enough "lettuce pickers". A couple of quick facts"
I suppose you could argue the lower wages provided economic benefot, due to lower prices, right? But You Would Be Wrong. So, where's the benefit? I'm still waiting. BTW, I do believe that some small benefit could eb found, but it will be difficult to quantify, and would still be a net negative when weighed with the costs. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 12:16 PM Post #20 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I'm sure you're capable of doing your own research about the benefits of illegal immigration. Here's a start for you:
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115100948305787940-tA5PP0Ya_9U0AlXBQQhnaDyMIYc_20060725.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top Even people who think it's a net negative agree. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html Oh, and that latter study points out that it's incredibly difficult to reduce the services received by illegal households ... because the kids (who are the primary recipients of services) are legal.
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| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Feb 18 2009, 12:18 PM Post #21 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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And you still haven't admitted that you totally misrepresented the point that I was trying to make in presenting those stories. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Feb 18 2009, 03:17 PM Post #22 |
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Emperor Pengin
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I think everybody here knows what the point you were trying to make with those stories. Especially when put in context with the entirety of your post.
Other studies have shown the costs to be at least $9 Billion for California alone. And that's not taking into account other expenses that tie into illegal immigration such as crime, incarceration, etc... It's a moot point as they are here, and there are some obligations that fall upon us. Higher moral principles that we as a nation should try to live up to. But it doesn't change the fact that illegal immigration is a significant factor in the financial problems facing CA, and it's also a factor throughout the US, and it doesn't need to be. It's far past time for either stricter enforcement of the laws on the books, or reform. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Jolly | Feb 18 2009, 05:59 PM Post #23 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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At some point, no matter what your moral principles are, there will be no money. No money, no services.... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Mark | Feb 18 2009, 06:24 PM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Just wondering when our government will realize that at it's current size and burn rate, it is unsustainable. |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| Horace | Feb 18 2009, 07:00 PM Post #25 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Maybe they've already realized it, in the foggy way something that is not really thought about can be "realized". And maybe it's a complete non-factor, to both the electorate and to the elected. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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Oh well. Less competition for jobs, will help ease the unemployment for those here legally, helping those here to find work easier, and also helping keep wages from dropping to far. Again, another good thing.


4:35 PM Jul 10