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I'm Appalled
Topic Started: Feb 14 2009, 03:13 AM (2,365 Views)
jon-nyc
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Cheers
Seems more like the Pelosi doctrine. THey should have kept more control in the whitehouse.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 03:44 AM
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2009, 06:26 PM
Of course, that said I think that opposing this bill is far more important than Sherrod Brown's family funeral.
I think you miss my point.

If the bill is going to pass anyway ... and it will, it's just that Brown has to leave the family funeral to make it happen ... then why make him do that? The outcome isn't going to change, so why be dicks about it?

Viewed the other way ... if I knew that a conservative Senator had to miss a family funeral to vote on a bill I opposed (let's say, the Patriot Act), and if he did the bill would pass, I'd want Kennedy and Kerry to cut him some slack and not support a filibuster, so that the vote could happen without him.

Or, if necessary, vote in favor. Because that's what a DECENT person would do.

But "decent Republican" is apparently a contradiction in terms.
Democrats could have not been dicks about it by scheduling this vote for another day and not making this poor man leave his mother's funeral to vote on it. It would also have given people some more time for people to read the goddamn thing. But wait, that is precisely what democrats didn't want.

Again, it is amazing chutzpah to suggest Republicans are being dicks because none of them would step up to facilitate this. They all have their own constituencies to answer to and they will not get any points from voters for voting for this just so some guy didn't have to leave his mother's funeral. But, hey, I suppose Democrats could try and use it against the Republicans. It would sure make an interesting campaign commercial.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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George K
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Finally
jon-nyc
Feb 15 2009, 07:08 AM
Seems more like the Pelosi doctrine. THey should have kept more control in the whitehouse.
It was Emmanuel who said "Never let a good crisis go to waste" (or something of the sort).

Edit to add: Good point, JBryan. Who's in control? Who makes the schedule? Who makes the rules?
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
JBryan
Feb 15 2009, 07:13 AM


Again, it is amazing chutzpah to suggest Republicans are being dicks because none of them would step up to facilitate this. They all have their own constituencies to answer to and they will not get any points from voters for voting for this just so some guy didn't have to leave his mother's funeral.
They were going to lose anyway. But it is definitely the Republican style to lose nasty.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Feb 15 2009, 09:25 AM
jon-nyc
Feb 15 2009, 07:08 AM
Seems more like the Pelosi doctrine. THey should have kept more control in the whitehouse.
It was Emmanuel who said "Never let a good crisis go to waste" (or something of the sort).

Edit to add: Good point, JBryan. Who's in control? Who makes the schedule? Who makes the rules?
Let's assume for a moment that the Dems sincerely believed it was a matter of national urgency. I know you don't, but they did. Shouldn't they try to get it done as quickly as possible?

And, if it's going to happen anyway, why does it matter to the Republicans to delay it?

Collegiality and bipartisanship, indeed.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
FASCISM:

an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence. Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation ,a race or even a social class.

Fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement. Fascist movements oppose any ideology or political system that gives direct political power to people as individuals rather than as a collective through the state.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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George K
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QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 09:28 AM
Let's assume for a moment that the Dems sincerely believed it was a matter of national urgency. I know you don't, but they did. Shouldn't they try to get it done as quickly as possible?

And, if it's going to happen anyway, why does it matter to the Republicans to delay it?

Collegiality and bipartisanship, indeed.
Let's not make that assumption, for it's a strawman. Would it really matter if this crap sandwich (most of which doesn't kick in for a couple of years) went to vote on Friday or Monday? Of course not.

THat's right, pass it on Friday night - when no one's looking.

Transparency, indeed.

If you think it's a matter of national urgency, please explain how a delay of 48 hours would have mattered. As a former partner of mine once said, "There are three types of operations:

1) Those that need to be done next week
2) Those that need to be done tomorrow
3) Those that need to be done right now."

This didn't fall into the #3 category, not by a longshot. And probably not even into #2.

Remember how everyone jumped on McCain for "grandstanding" and wanting to postpone the debate to talk about the economic crisis? Well...

And, if the Democrats had been so sincere, they would have delayed the vote - they make the rules, remember.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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George K
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Finally
QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 09:28 AM
Let's assume for a moment that the Dems sincerely believed it was a matter of national urgency. I know you don't, but they did. Shouldn't they try to get it done as quickly as possible?

And, if it's going to happen anyway, why does it matter to the Republicans to delay it?

Collegiality and bipartisanship, indeed.
Let's not make that assumption, for it's a strawman. Would it really matter if this crap sandwich (most of which doesn't kick in for a couple of years) went to vote on Friday or Monday? Of course not.

THat's right, pass it on Friday night - when no one's looking.

Transparency, indeed.

If you think it's a matter of national urgency, please explain how a delay of 48 hours would have mattered. As a former partner of mine once said, "There are three types of operations:

1) Those that need to be done next week
2) Those that need to be done tomorrow
3) Those that need to be done right now."

This didn't fall into the #3 category, not by a longshot. And probably not even into #2.

Remember how everyone jumped on McCain for "grandstanding" and wanting to postpone the debate to talk about the economic crisis? Well...

And, if the Democrats had been so sincere, they would have delayed the vote - they make the rules, remember.

Edit to add: As to collegiality and bipartisanship, who was locked out of the discussions? The minority.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Bears repeating.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Feb 15 2009, 02:20 AM
IT - it certainly wasn't pure socialism, however it was the largest socialist shift in our history (remember that's how the topic arose in this thread), in that never before or since did the government have nearly as much de jure or de facto control over the means of production.




OK, Jon, I don't even see how it can be considered socialism, though I would agree if you used terms like "centralization" or "nationalism" -- socialism is an economic model, not a political model. You are talking about politics (the relationship of the state to the individual or corporations of individuals).
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Feb 15 2009, 10:03 AM
QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 09:28 AM
Let's assume for a moment that the Dems sincerely believed it was a matter of national urgency. I know you don't, but they did. Shouldn't they try to get it done as quickly as possible?

And, if it's going to happen anyway, why does it matter to the Republicans to delay it?

Collegiality and bipartisanship, indeed.
Let's not make that assumption, for it's a strawman. Would it really matter if this crap sandwich (most of which doesn't kick in for a couple of years) went to vote on Friday or Monday? Of course not.

THat's right, pass it on Friday night - when no one's looking.

Transparency, indeed.

If you think it's a matter of national urgency, please explain how a delay of 48 hours would have mattered. As a former partner of mine once said, "There are three types of operations:

1) Those that need to be done next week
2) Those that need to be done tomorrow
3) Those that need to be done right now."

This didn't fall into the #3 category, not by a longshot. And probably not even into #2.

Remember how everyone jumped on McCain for "grandstanding" and wanting to postpone the debate to talk about the economic crisis? Well...

And, if the Democrats had been so sincere, they would have delayed the vote - they make the rules, remember.

Edit to add: As to collegiality and bipartisanship, who was locked out of the discussions? The minority.
I seem to recall the President meeting more than once with Republicans, probably more than Bush met with with Democrats in eight years.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
He met with them offered no movement and basically told them they should capitulate because he won. Is that your idea of collegiality?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 11:05 AM
I seem to recall the President meeting more than once with Republicans, probably more than Bush met with with Democrats in eight years.
And when he did meet with them, he said, "I trump you all. I won."

Quote:
 
Collegiality and bipartisanship, indeed.


Indeed.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
George K
Feb 15 2009, 11:30 AM
And when he did meet with them, he said, "I trump you all. I won."
First time I read about that comment, it was said to have been understood as humorous even by the GOPers present.

Do I see a GOP myth in the making...
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Not the way I heard it.

And nobody likes a funny president.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I suppose. Bush in 04 made a similar pronouncement (that he now had political capital to spend). But he pissed it away on a social security bill that was DOA.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Fox news' take:

"Democrats called it a light-hearted moment that drew laughs around the table, while Republicans said there was laughter but couldn't recall if any of it came from their ranks."

That's funny.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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Mikhailoh
Feb 15 2009, 11:58 AM
Not the way I heard it.

And nobody likes a funny president.
Obama to GOP: "I won."

Jonathan Weisman reports on the White House.

The top congressional leaders from both parties gathered at the White House for a working discussion over the shape and size of President Barack Obama’s economic stimulus plan. The meeting was designed to promote bipartisanship.

But Obama showed that in an ideological debate, he’s not averse to using a jab.

Challenged by one Republican senator over the contents of the package, the new president, according to participants, replied: “I won.”

The statement was prompted by Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl of Arizona , who challenged the president and the Democratic leaders over the balance between the package’s spending and tax cuts, bringing up the traditional Republican notion that a tax credit for people who do not earn enough to pay income taxes is not a tax cut but a government check.

Obama noted that such workers pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, property taxes and sales taxes. The issue was widely debated during the presidential campaign, when Sen. John McCain, the Republican nominee, challenged Obama’s tax plan as “welfare.”

With those two words — “I won” — the Democratic president let the Republicans know that debate has been put to rest Nov. 4 .

Democratic and Republican aides confirmed the exchange. A White House spokesman said he wasn’t immediately aware of the exchange. The aides who heard the remarks stressed that it wasn’t as boldly partisan as it might sound.

Still, other Democrats echoed the sentiment. As he left the White House, House Majority Whip James Clyburn of South Carolina was asked about Republican complaints that Democrats aren’t listening to what their GOP colleagues have to say. “We’re responding to the American people,” he said. “The American people didn’t listen to them too well during the election.”

=-=-=-=-=
Obama to GOP: "I Won"

President Obama listened to Republican gripes about his stimulus package during a meeting with congressional leaders Friday morning - but he also left no doubt about who's in charge of these negotiations. "I won," Obama noted matter-of-factly, according to sources familiar with the conversation.

The exchange arose as top House and Senate Republicans expressed concern to the president about the amount of spending in the package. They also raised red flags about a refundable tax credit that returns money to those who don’t pay income taxes, the sources said.

The Republicans stressed that they want to include more middle class tax cuts in the package, citing their proposal to cut the two lowest tax rates — 15 percent and 10 percent — to ten percent and five percent, rather than issue the refundable credit Obama wants.

At another point in the meeting, sources said Obama told the group: “This is a grave situation facing the country.” White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Obama would hold another economic meeting in the White House Saturday for a "broader group."

After Friday's meeting, Democratic and Republican leaders publicly wrangled over the developing stimulus plan.

But perhaps taking a cue from Obama’s “I won” line when Democrats were asked if they were concerned about Republicans blocking the package, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid had a swift one-word answer: “No.”

=-=-=-=-=-=


Sounds like it was a laugh a minute.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Fox News describes it as a more jocular moment than did your sources.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 09:27 AM
JBryan
Feb 15 2009, 07:13 AM


Again, it is amazing chutzpah to suggest Republicans are being dicks because none of them would step up to facilitate this. They all have their own constituencies to answer to and they will not get any points from voters for voting for this just so some guy didn't have to leave his mother's funeral.
They were going to lose anyway. But it is definitely the Republican style to lose nasty.
Especially since the Democrats are so good at winning nasty.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Feb 15 2009, 11:11 AM
He met with them offered no movement and basically told them they should capitulate because he won. Is that your idea of collegiality?
Why don't you remind me about how Bush treated the Dems when they were the minority?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Feb 15 2009, 11:58 AM
Mik doesn't like a funny president.
Fixed it for you.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
jon-nyc
Feb 15 2009, 12:13 PM
Fox News describes it as a more jocular moment than did your sources.
So, now you're believing "Faux?"

Posted Image

Oh
My
Sides.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 12:28 PM
Mikhailoh
Feb 15 2009, 11:11 AM
He met with them offered no movement and basically told them they should capitulate because he won. Is that your idea of collegiality?
Why don't you remind me about how Bush treated the Dems when they were the minority?
At this point in his presidency he was treating them quite nicely to the chagrin of many of his supporters who knew he would never be extended the same courtesty and was not. Just in case you forgot.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
JBryan
Feb 15 2009, 12:38 PM
QuirtEvans
Feb 15 2009, 12:28 PM
Mikhailoh
Feb 15 2009, 11:11 AM
He met with them offered no movement and basically told them they should capitulate because he won. Is that your idea of collegiality?
Why don't you remind me about how Bush treated the Dems when they were the minority?
At this point in his presidency he was treating them quite nicely to the chagrin of many of his supporters who knew he would never be extended the same courtesty and was not. Just in case you forgot.
It depends on what you mean by "at this point in his Presidency".

You might mean the number of days in. I'd suggest the more relevant comparison is the first time the rubber hit the road on something Bush wanted as a matter of conservative philosophy.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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