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I'm Appalled
Topic Started: Feb 14 2009, 03:13 AM (2,366 Views)
Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Taxes are theft, too!
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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brenda
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..............
Klaus = Mark ?????
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I think he's channeling Ron Paul and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
No, I'm not Mark.

I do simultaneously believe in both anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-communism.

I'm an anarcho-capimunist :rimshot:
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
QuirtEvans
Feb 14 2009, 11:45 AM
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2009, 09:13 AM
QuirtEvans
Feb 14 2009, 06:24 AM
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2009, 04:42 AM
Pretty partisan opinion considering facts not in evidence.

Now, if a senator had come back for a Republican victory the headline would have been 'GOP misuses government aircraft for personal travel'.
They needed him to overcome the filibuster.

Who was threatening a filibuster, exactly?

Oh, yeah.
Citation please? I cannot seem to find anything about a GOP filibuster threat on this bill. On seating Franken, yeah, but not on this. I do find articles back to January saying they did NOT plan to filibuster the bill.
If they weren't threatening a filibuster, you wouldn't need 60 votes.

60 votes is needed for cloture, to break a filibuster. 51 is needed to pass a bill.

They had 59 votes. Why did they need the 60th, if no filibuster were at issue?
The fact that the Democrats wanted to make sure the GOP could not filibuster does not imply the GOP threatened or planned or intended to do so.

So, since your entire thread rests on your assertion that he evil GOP forced poor Senator Brown to leave his poor dead mither's wake, citation please? Not assumption, citation.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Feb 14 2009, 03:09 PM
Because the infringement can increase to the point where the ownership is meaningless, and full authority with respet to the disposition of the assets belongs to someone else.

Thats what happened in the US during the war.

Apart from the main point that the US government became the main customer (and a very well paying one at that for those who owned factories that produced war goods) which obviates your notion that the government socialized anything, nothing you have said shows ownership to be anything but a binary concept.

Do you have any evidence that the WPB coerced factory owners to convert to manufacturing materiel? Were any factories actually seized and ran by the government? I suspect most did for a combination of patriotic and business reasons. The accusations of the socialists during WWII was precisely that manufacturing monopolies were controlling the WPB, not vice versa, and to the detriment of the worker and small businesses. In fact, the government directly funded the production of plants for making materiels, and then after the war turned these assets over to the corporations and also issued tax amortization certificates which allowed corporations to depreciate at the accelerated rate of 20% per year --- if you were running a factory in 1942, I don't think the Feds would have had to hold a gun to your head to get you to sign on to that.

And the fact that within months after VJ Day the WPB was disbanded and the government built plants were turned over to the corporations, I should have such "meaningless" ownership.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
brenda
Feb 14 2009, 03:25 PM
Klaus = Mark ?????
Quote:
 
Property is theft! :yesgrin:


That should be Klaus = Marx.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
BTW; The Big Three automakers stared down the Feds in 1942, claiming that only 10-15% of their factories could be retooled to produce war goods. This allowed them to continue to produce luxury automobiles in a growing market, and got the Feds to fund new factories for the production of armaments, even though it delayed the war efforts significantly, and the automakers got the government funded factories at the end of the War. Such a deal!!! Capitalism at its finest!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Executive 9024 gave the head of the WPB sweeping powers:

2. The Chairman of the War Production Board, with the advice and assistance of the members of the Board, shall:

...

(b) Determine the policies, plans, procedures, and methods of the several Federal departments, establishments, and agencies in respect to war procurement and production, including purchasing, contracting, specifications, and construction; and including conversion, requisitioning, plant expansion, and the financing thereof; and issue such directives in respect thereto as he may deem necessary or appropriate.

And lest there be any doubt about his authority, several days later the President amended the order as follows:

5. The Chairman may exercise the powers, authority, and discretion conferred upon him by this Order through such officials or agencies and in such manner as he may determine; and his decisions shall be final.


Regarding actual anecdotes about the WBPs activities and challenges to its power, I recommend Pollenerg's War and Society,
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2009, 03:36 PM
QuirtEvans
Feb 14 2009, 11:45 AM
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2009, 09:13 AM
QuirtEvans
Feb 14 2009, 06:24 AM
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2009, 04:42 AM
Pretty partisan opinion considering facts not in evidence.

Now, if a senator had come back for a Republican victory the headline would have been 'GOP misuses government aircraft for personal travel'.
They needed him to overcome the filibuster.

Who was threatening a filibuster, exactly?

Oh, yeah.
Citation please? I cannot seem to find anything about a GOP filibuster threat on this bill. On seating Franken, yeah, but not on this. I do find articles back to January saying they did NOT plan to filibuster the bill.
If they weren't threatening a filibuster, you wouldn't need 60 votes.

60 votes is needed for cloture, to break a filibuster. 51 is needed to pass a bill.

They had 59 votes. Why did they need the 60th, if no filibuster were at issue?
The fact that the Democrats wanted to make sure the GOP could not filibuster does not imply the GOP threatened or planned or intended to do so.

So, since your entire thread rests on your assertion that he evil GOP forced poor Senator Brown to leave his poor dead mither's wake, citation please? Not assumption, citation.
Shelby Wants To Filibuster the Stimulus Bill

Quote:
 
Shelby said he is prepared to filibuster the proposed economic stimulus bill, but fears enough Republicans will side with Senate Democrats to override any attempt to block the bill’s passage.


Shall I get it notarized for you?

Or you could look here.

Quote:
 
As this story went to press, GOP senators indicated they were working on a coordinated plan with Senate Republican Whip Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) and that a filibuster is a possible part of that plan.

“I think its going to take 60 votes to pass the bill,” Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) told CNSNews.com, indicating the likelihood of a filibuster. It takes 60 votes to stop a filibuster, which occurs when a senator blocks legislation by refusing to yield the floor.

“Whatever we can do, whether offering amendments, whether voting against the bill because it could not be amended, or whatever parliamentary possibilities are in front of us we will explore because this isn’t about playing the game,” Sen. Kyl told CNSNews.com when asked whether he would filibuster the bill or encourage his colleagues to do so.


And, of course, other people had precisely the same impression I had:

Quote:
 
The Senate approved the measure 60-38 with three GOP moderates providing crucial support — the only members of their party to back it. Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio cast the decisive vote after flying aboard a government plane from Ohio, where he was mourning his mother's death.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29179041/

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
That's what I was looking for Thank you.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Of course, that said I think that opposing this bill is far more important than Sherrod Brown's family funeral.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jon: None of that makes for socialism. Your whole argument is that
Quote:
 
1) Socialism is bad.
2) The US effort in WW-II was good.
3) A substantial part of the US effort in WW-II consisted of commandeering the economy for war production.
4) Therefore, commandeering the economy for war production was not socialism.

Unraveling your bizarre logic that you are trying to impute to your interlocutor "The US war production was not socialism because the US war effort was good and socialism bad". Which is false on the face of it. Unraveling more, we can see that your fallacy is really by some weird misapplication of the principle of noncontradiction, through which you are trying to argue that the wartime effort really was socialism.

No, the US war effort was not socialism because the 1) government did not seize the factories which remained in private hands, and 2) the government paid for the procured materiel.

The fact that the corporations actually did business with the government as two distinct parties to a contract show this is not socialism, but capitalism in the exceptional circumstance of a war time effort. Regardless of the war time powers assumed by the government, the fact that for instance the Big Three were able to stare down the government shows the term "socialism" just doesn't make sense in appropriately describing these circumstance.

The obvious analogy is the war time draft: a drafted soldier does not become a slave. By your terms, he would be. You could so define a drafted soldier as a slave, but that sort of idiosyncratic definition does not have to be accepted by anyone else.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jon, 99% of the time I am in agreement with you. This is the once when I am not.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
IT - it certainly wasn't pure socialism, however it was the largest socialist shift in our history (remember that's how the topic arose in this thread), in that never before or since did the government have nearly as much de jure or de facto control over the means of production.




In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2009, 06:26 PM
Of course, that said I think that opposing this bill is far more important than Sherrod Brown's family funeral.
I think you miss my point.

If the bill is going to pass anyway ... and it will, it's just that Brown has to leave the family funeral to make it happen ... then why make him do that? The outcome isn't going to change, so why be dicks about it?

Viewed the other way ... if I knew that a conservative Senator had to miss a family funeral to vote on a bill I opposed (let's say, the Patriot Act), and if he did the bill would pass, I'd want Kennedy and Kerry to cut him some slack and not support a filibuster, so that the vote could happen without him.

Or, if necessary, vote in favor. Because that's what a DECENT person would do.

But "decent Republican" is apparently a contradiction in terms.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I disagree. This is political theater. It didn't have to be, but the Democrats made it so by ramming this bill down Congress throat. It could have been a masterwork of bipartisan lawmaking had they not made it a Christmas list from many years, masquerading as stimulus.

I think it is important for the GOP to be seen as doing all that could be done to resist it. The Democrats now solely own this bill, good or bad. Their majority will rest on its success or failure and how it is seen to affect the lives of voters. They bet the whole ranch on it.

Bush's legacy will be judged by history. Obama's will be judged in 2010 for better or worse. It is pretty hard right now to see how that judgement will go.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mikhailoh
Feb 15 2009, 05:04 AM
The Democrats now solely own this bill, good or bad.
Tell that to Arlen Specter. Or Olympia Snowe. Or Susan Collins.

Quote:
 
Bush's legacy will be judged by history. Obama's will be judged in 2010 for better or worse. It is pretty hard right now to see how that judgement will go.


Pretty funny stuff. Your guy gets judged by history, the other guy gets judged by election results. Do you put on a big orange fuzzy wig for that routine?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Zero GOP representatives, Quirt. Zero. Three senators. Nahh. They own it. And the sloppy, hasty partisan manner in which they played politics under the guise of concern for Americans will come back to haunt if they are not very, very lucky.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
And of course the fact that the "Most Ethical Congress" did not let the public see it on the internet (as promised) and Obama will sign it without public input (as promised) will come back to bite them in the rear as well.

As to ownership? 535 members of Congress...3 Republicans. About 0.5%.
Democrats own it, 99.5%.
Good luck.
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- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Personally, I think it will turn out to be a helpful thing in the short run, and a damaging thing in the long run.

I think the long run effects will be greater, so I wouldn't have crafted it this way, myself. I'd have gone smaller, more targeted. I'd have cut out all the pork. If I'd been President, I would have said, nice try, but try again, and this time limit it to things that are real stimulus items. I'd have made them vote on all the non-stimulus things separately, line by line.

But then, I wouldn't have made Rahm my chief of staff.

However, the notion that it will blow up in the Democrats' faces in less than two years is highly speculative, and, in my view, unlikely. The effects of the bill won't be seen for several years, and the really bad effects probably not during Obama's first term. The only way it affects the 2010 mid-terms is if it leaves a bad taste in voters' mouths over the way it went down.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I disagree. They just dictated the tone of Obama's administration and the issues of 2010. After the urgency to pass this 'for the American people', and all the stories of the pork, mismanagement and permanent spending that come to light?

If the situation of the average person does not change for the better they are in trouble. The flip side is if it does change for the better they will be unstoppable and the GOP may see further losses.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The American people are expecting this thing to produce, and to produce fast. If the recession deepens and more people lose their jobs, not to mention their homes, along with destroying their credit ratings....Obama and the Dems are going to own this one.

Pity, because they could have done a much better job.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Yes, they could have. There was consensus on the need for stimulus, and it could have been a turning point in party politics back toward good government. Instead they simply abused an economic crisis to pursue their own agenda.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
Mikhailoh
Feb 15 2009, 06:35 AM
Yes, they could have. They simply abused an economic crisis to pursue their own agenda.
The Emmanuel Doctrine®
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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