Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
These authors are likely to be ...
Substantially to the left 2 (15.4%)
1 (7.7%)
Somewhat to the left 2 (15.4%)
0 (0%)
Centrist 2 (15.4%)
0 (0%)
Somewhat to the right 4 (30.8%)
0 (0%)
Substantially to the right 2 (15.4%)
Total Votes: 13
Political Poll; Throwing Caution to the Wind?
Topic Started: Jan 22 2009, 05:06 AM (430 Views)
Piano*Dad
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp
Please read this short article and select the poll answer that you think best reflects the intellectual position these authors likely represent in this article.

If you know about Cass Sunstein, please don't spill the beans and spoil the fun. If you don't know who he is, please don't google these authors to find out until after you have voted. And please don't discuss the authors and their bios until people have had a chance to make up their own minds without your aid or the assistance of Mr. Google.

Here's the article:

Beyond the Precautionary Principle

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Piano*Dad
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp
I didn't quite know what I was doing and added extra spaces that became answer possibilities. Please ignore the extra unlabeled spaces rather than using them as more finely "in-between" answers.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
CTPianotech
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
I voted somewhat to the the right---but honestly that's little more than a guess.

I don't even know what the 'precautionary principle' is that they're arguing against, but I have a feeling I didn't use it when I voted--thus my vote. :nerd:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I went with Centrist, although my first inclination would have been somewhat to the right.

Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Piano*Dad
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp
Well, I think one way to think about it is to ask yourself which people and which groups are most likely to want to use this 'precautionary principle' to push policy in their direction.

Another way, of course, is to look at the substance of their argument and the way they make it. What are their examples and why might they have been chosen?


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Aqua Letifer
Member Avatar
ZOOOOOM!
Yeah, I lived a little and picked far to the right. If I'm surprised it wouldn't be the first time.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Renauda
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
No comment being that precautionary principle is has been pretty much the guide for policy making at the municipal, provincial and federal levels of Canadian government for quite some time.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Piano*Dad
Jan 22 2009, 05:06 AM
Please read this short article and select the poll answer that you think best reflects the intellectual position these authors likely represent in this article.

If you know about Cass Sunstein, please don't spill the beans and spoil the fun. If you don't know who he is, please don't google these authors to find out until after you have voted. And please don't discuss the authors and their bios until people have had a chance to make up their own minds without your aid or the assistance of Mr. Google.

Here's the article:

Beyond the Precautionary Principle

Do want us to vote based off the summary, or the article which is not accessible without registering?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Possible applications include climate change, genetically modified food, nuclear power, homeland security, new drug therapies, and even war.

Since I would apply the PC to just about all of those over C/B analysis, and I am to the right, I would vote to the left.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
"The precautionary principle is a moral and political principle which states that if an action or policy might cause severe or irreversible harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of a scientific consensus that harm would not ensue, the burden of proof falls on those who would advocate taking the action." from wiki
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mark
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
The “precautionary principle” sounds very Orwellian.

It's totalitarian to me.

Both the Left and the Right have totalitarian ideals. They just argue about which way to implement such atrocities.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
Jan 22 2009, 10:21 AM
The “precautionary principle” sounds very Orwellian.

It's totalitarian to me.

Both the Left and the Right have totalitarian ideals. They just argue about which way to implement such atrocities.
I agree Mark. The problem is that the issues stated are generally concerned with the common good and not applicable to private goods (e.g., do you really think your neighbor has a libertarian right to experiment with highly radioactive material in his garage?)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mark
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Yes I do.

As long as his garage is built to not leak the bad stuff into his neighbor's environment.

Should I not be allowed to make my own bio-diesel fuel in my garage? There are some nasty chemicals required in the process. As long as I do not cause harm to anyone else who are you to say I cannot do such things?

The person experimenting may produce something that is a benefit to all. Why would you want to stop that? Fear?

Fear. We have been brought up to live in fear.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mark
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
I should clarify.

If we want to restrict the ownership of dangerous weapons based materials (i agree with that btw) then we simply need to amend the constitution to spell out what "Arms" are to be restricted from citizen based ownership.

Otherwise we have a constitutional right to own a battleship, tank, AAA, and yes, even nukes.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Piano*Dad
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp
I didn't realize you had to register. Let me look into that.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kincaid
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Based on the wiki explanation, I voted substantially to the left.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
Jan 22 2009, 10:31 AM
Yes I do.

As long as his garage is built to not leak the bad stuff into his neighbor's environment.

Should I not be allowed to make my own bio-diesel fuel in my garage? There are some nasty chemicals required in the process. As long as I do not cause harm to anyone else who are you to say I cannot do such things?

The person experimenting may produce something that is a benefit to all. Why would you want to stop that? Fear?

Fear. We have been brought up to live in fear.
And how are you going to ensure that his garage is built to not leak the bad stuff into the neighborhood?

At some point you need regulation and the coercive power of the State limit your neighbor's rights that might cause you harm. I don't see how you can avoid it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
Mark would be happiest on a 200-acre ranch in Montana with an 8-foot high fence all the way around it, and his house built smack in the middle of it.

(Come to think of it, someplace like that is where I'd probably be happiest, too...) :unsure:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mark
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
I should not have to resort to such measures though it would be kind of cool. I pretty much have that scaled down to 2 acres proper with 68 undeveloped acres behind me and a creek. There is a pretty active railroad track that runs through a portion of it.


Oh, and there is no 8ft high fence. :lol:
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
68 undeveloped acres? It sounds like just the right size for my Ron Paul theme amusement park: "The most libertarian place on earth"!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Mark
Jan 22 2009, 10:31 AM
Yes I do.

As long as his garage is built to not leak the bad stuff into his neighbor's environment.

Should I not be allowed to make my own bio-diesel fuel in my garage? There are some nasty chemicals required in the process. As long as I do not cause harm to anyone else who are you to say I cannot do such things?

The person experimenting may produce something that is a benefit to all. Why would you want to stop that? Fear?

Fear. We have been brought up to live in fear.
Sounds like you have met the standard of the Precautionary Principle to me, mitigating the risk.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mark
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Are you saying I should not be able to make my own Bio-Diesel in my garage? I do not agree with that at all. Some vegetable oil and other off the shelf chemicals which can be bad when released into the environment, but then so can paint, thinner, acetone, xylene and the like. In fact I may be mistaken but I think xylene is a chemical used in the production of Bio-Diesel.

But I agree with mitigating the risk of certain weapons and chemical/bio agents.

The 2nd amendment needs to be addressed in such a manner to continue to provide for the ownership and bearing of arms but it should actually be clarified in light of these weapons of mass destruction.

It is way too broad of a statement. Made when the most devastating weapon one could have was a canon and some dynamite.

Unless we truly do just ignore the constitution.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Piano*Dad
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp
I'm having trouble finding a free copy of the article. Here's another 'introduction' to it from JSTOR. If you can access JSTOR you can read it there.

Beyond the Precautionary Principle

I'll just spill the beans about why I even posted this thread.

The precautionary principle is the darling of environmental groups and anti-market groups who see nasty corporations destroying the world. It is the notion that suggests that we should regulate or ban anything that 'might' cause problems, even if there is absolutely no scientific evidence to sustain that notion. Sunstein argues that this principle is logically incoherent and offers no rational basis for policy making. To put it another way, he argues that the precautionary principle is nothing more than a way to justify intensely politicizing the regulatory process. He became a worrisome factor and a possible enemy to many on the activist left. I suspect that a preponderance of people who read the full article would place him someplace on the right or perhaps in the center, but probably not on the left.

There was much concern then among the activist left when, shock and surprise, Obama appointed Sunstein to head OIRA, essentially making him the 'regulation Czar.'

I must admit to a certain surprise myself. Sunstein is indeed on the left politically, but his views show how one can advocate a left-leaning 'progressive' agenda while remaining fully in command of their wits.

Sunstein is a truly brilliant and accomplished scholar. Here's his list of recent publications from the Chicago website.

Sustein publications

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
Jan 22 2009, 04:59 PM
Are you saying I should not be able to make my own Bio-Diesel in my garage? I do not agree with that at all.
I didn't say anything to that effect. Although I don't see how we can do away with compliance and enforcement. How do you ensure the public safety?

This is what gets to the heart of a hardline libertarian argument: you (you in particular) seem to keep invoking some principle that you can do what you want on your own land, presumably with the understanding that you are a responsible citizen in a free society, as long as you are harming no one else in any manner. (If I had gotten this part wrong, please clarify what your actual position is). Yet what protects you and the rest of society from those who are not so responsible and might actually cause harm to others? "Harm" is a broad category -- health, safety, economic, etc. Again, I don't see how you can do away with the regulatory and coercive power of the state to ensure that one person is not harming another.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply