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| Is waterboarding torture? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 19 2009, 07:36 AM (980 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | Jan 19 2009, 02:42 PM Post #26 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I don't think Quirt is making the point that it would be a moral action to bash in the head, just that he would do it. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Klaus | Jan 19 2009, 02:54 PM Post #27 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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*just returning from bashing my neighbors head into the ground* I feel better now. You are right, Quirt - it is refreshing. Fvck Kant !
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| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| John D'Oh | Jan 19 2009, 02:57 PM Post #28 |
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MAMIL
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Has anybody seen the movie 'In the Name of the Father'? Those disgusting terrorist IRA scumbags were righteously tortured, leading to confessions and convictions, meanwhile the press and many of the British public called for their execution. Interestingly enough, they weren't disgusting terrorist scumbags at all. I don't see much difference between the American judicial system and the British in terms of providing accurate convictions. Obviously, back then when there was a terrorist atrocity we didn't round up A-rabs, we very stupidly rounded up Irishmen, so this was a totally different situation. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Dewey | Jan 19 2009, 03:36 PM Post #29 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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July 18, 1768: In an instant, Immanuel Kant recognizes the fatal flaw in his philosophy of the categorical imperative when his wife asks, "Does this dress make me look fat?" |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 03:54 PM Post #30 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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What? Um, no. One is voluntary. The subject being tortured volunteered to be tortured. He is well aware that no harm will come to him. The other is forced upon the subject with no such assurance as to no harm will come to him. And the action during training to a volunteer subject is certainly is not the same as it would be to the "enemy". I cannot believe that any person raised in this country condones such actions by our government. |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 19 2009, 04:01 PM Post #31 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I think George is correct here. By action -- it seems the action of waterboarding per se (binding someone face up, placing a towel over their face, pouring water on them, etc). By intent -- it seems the purpose is important: to extract information, to punish, to torment, to undergo resistance training, to engage in a journalistic experiment, etc. is different and defines the morality of the matter as well as whether it is "torture". |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| George K | Jan 19 2009, 04:02 PM Post #32 |
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Finally
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So, it's not the act itself, but how the person perceives it. If it's voluntary, it's not torture - if it's involuntary it is. The act itself is irrelevant. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 04:06 PM Post #33 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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The act is different is each of those scenarios George. |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 19 2009, 04:17 PM Post #34 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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But the "act" we are talking about is waterboarding per se. Not waterboarding with any specific intention attached to it that would make it a different moral act. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 04:18 PM Post #35 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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But it is not the same act when used on a volunteer as when it is used on an "enemy" I am saying that they do not do the same act. It is modified for the volunteer. |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| George K | Jan 19 2009, 04:21 PM Post #36 |
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Finally
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Exactly. The question is whether the perceptions of the waterboardee or the intentions of the waterboarder change the fact as to whether waterboarding is torture. If the answer is yes, then it becomes pretty damn subjective, and in my opinion, difficult to legislate. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| George K | Jan 19 2009, 04:22 PM Post #37 |
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Finally
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We cross posted.... Howzaat? |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 04:23 PM Post #38 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It's real easy to legislate. No water boarding!
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| George K | Jan 19 2009, 04:40 PM Post #39 |
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Finally
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True. And I have no problem with that. If Congress wants to define waterboarding as torture, and therefore illegal, let them. However, I see lots of posturing on the part of Congress (and Obama, for that matter) about it. Seems no one has the stones to come out and say it. If it's not illegal, it's not illegal. Seems pretty straightforward to me. So far, all we have is a lot of people on the Hill giving their opinions, but no one actually doing anything about it. Carp or get of the pot. If your government doesn't torture, grow a pair and define what, exactly and explicitly you mean by that, and legislate it. Until that time, shut up and quit being pompous. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| OperaTenor | Jan 19 2009, 11:13 PM Post #40 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Go, Mark, go! |
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| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 11:17 PM Post #41 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Hey OT, How do you feel about the new boss? He's looking a lot like the old one right now. |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| Horace | Jan 20 2009, 12:35 AM Post #42 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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From our perspective it's torture. From a medieval torturer's perspective, it's just plain lazy and incompetent. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Klaus | Jan 20 2009, 01:56 AM Post #43 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Wim | Jan 20 2009, 06:30 AM Post #44 |
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Junior Carp
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Waterboarding is torture. And I think I'm in good company : Holder Wim |
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| JBryan | Jan 20 2009, 06:44 AM Post #45 |
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I am the grey one
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Holder would just get them a presidential pardon. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| John D'Oh | Jan 20 2009, 06:46 AM Post #46 |
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MAMIL
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Namby-pamby modern methods have destroyed the world that was. In the olden days, some bloke who allegedly slipped Princess Diana half a pound of English breakfast sausage would have been found guilty of high treaon and publicly disembowelled in the centre of London. Now, he gets to appear on Daytime Television and is feted by Oprah Winfrey. Actually, thinking about it, I'm not sure things have changed that much. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 20 2009, 09:42 AM Post #47 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It is interesting that he needs to try to buttress the point with a utilitarian argument (right or wrong). Presumably if torture could be made to lead to reliable intelligence it would be more acceptable? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Moonbat | Jan 20 2009, 09:59 AM Post #48 |
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Pisa-Carp
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| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Axtremus | Jan 20 2009, 11:03 AM Post #49 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Is that the German spelling? |
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| Axtremus | Jan 20 2009, 11:04 AM Post #50 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yes. |
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