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Is waterboarding torture?
Topic Started: Jan 19 2009, 07:36 AM (980 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I don't think Quirt is making the point that it would be a moral action to bash in the head, just that he would do it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
*just returning from bashing my neighbors head into the ground*

I feel better now. You are right, Quirt - it is refreshing. Fvck Kant ! ;)
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Has anybody seen the movie 'In the Name of the Father'? Those disgusting terrorist IRA scumbags were righteously tortured, leading to confessions and convictions, meanwhile the press and many of the British public called for their execution. Interestingly enough, they weren't disgusting terrorist scumbags at all. I don't see much difference between the American judicial system and the British in terms of providing accurate convictions.

Obviously, back then when there was a terrorist atrocity we didn't round up A-rabs, we very stupidly rounded up Irishmen, so this was a totally different situation.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Jan 19 2009, 02:25 PM
Quote:
 
We don't make decisions about what the laws should be based on what we'd want when we are personally involved.


Hey, but what about the categorical imperative?

All my live I lived according to this great ideal from Kant, and now you are telling me that it is actually nonsense? :veryangry:
July 18, 1768: In an instant, Immanuel Kant recognizes the fatal flaw in his philosophy of the categorical imperative when his wife asks, "Does this dress make me look fat?"
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Mark
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George K
Jan 19 2009, 09:39 AM
So, it's not the action, it's the intent that makes it torture?
What?

Um, no.

One is voluntary. The subject being tortured volunteered to be tortured. He is well aware that no harm will come to him.

The other is forced upon the subject with no such assurance as to no harm will come to him.

And the action during training to a volunteer subject is certainly is not the same as it would be to the "enemy".

I cannot believe that any person raised in this country condones such actions by our government.

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I think George is correct here. By action -- it seems the action of waterboarding per se (binding someone face up, placing a towel over their face, pouring water on them, etc). By intent -- it seems the purpose is important: to extract information, to punish, to torment, to undergo resistance training, to engage in a journalistic experiment, etc. is different and defines the morality of the matter as well as whether it is "torture".
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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George K
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Finally
So, it's not the act itself, but how the person perceives it. If it's voluntary, it's not torture - if it's involuntary it is. The act itself is irrelevant.
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Mark
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The act is different is each of those scenarios George.


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ivorythumper
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Mark
Jan 19 2009, 04:06 PM
The act is different is each of those scenarios George.


But the "act" we are talking about is waterboarding per se. Not waterboarding with any specific intention attached to it that would make it a different moral act.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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But it is not the same act when used on a volunteer as when it is used on an "enemy"

I am saying that they do not do the same act.

It is modified for the volunteer.
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George K
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ivorythumper
Jan 19 2009, 04:17 PM
Mark
Jan 19 2009, 04:06 PM
The act is different is each of those scenarios George.
But the "act" we are talking about is waterboarding per se. Not waterboarding with any specific intention attached to it that would make it a different moral act.
Exactly. The question is whether the perceptions of the waterboardee or the intentions of the waterboarder change the fact as to whether waterboarding is torture.

If the answer is yes, then it becomes pretty damn subjective, and in my opinion, difficult to legislate.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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George K
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Mark
Jan 19 2009, 04:18 PM
It is modified for the volunteer.
We cross posted....

Howzaat?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
It's real easy to legislate.

No water boarding! :P
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George K
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Mark
Jan 19 2009, 04:23 PM
It's real easy to legislate.

No water boarding! :P
True. And I have no problem with that. If Congress wants to define waterboarding as torture, and therefore illegal, let them. However, I see lots of posturing on the part of Congress (and Obama, for that matter) about it. Seems no one has the stones to come out and say it.

If it's not illegal, it's not illegal. Seems pretty straightforward to me. So far, all we have is a lot of people on the Hill giving their opinions, but no one actually doing anything about it.

Carp or get of the pot. If your government doesn't torture, grow a pair and define what, exactly and explicitly you mean by that, and legislate it. Until that time, shut up and quit being pompous.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Go, Mark, go!

:thumb:



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Mark
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Hey OT,

How do you feel about the new boss? He's looking a lot like the old one right now.
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Horace
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From our perspective it's torture. From a medieval torturer's perspective, it's just plain lazy and incompetent.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Jan 19 2009, 03:36 PM
Klaus
Jan 19 2009, 02:25 PM
Quote:
 
We don't make decisions about what the laws should be based on what we'd want when we are personally involved.


Hey, but what about the categorical imperative?

All my live I lived according to this great ideal from Kant, and now you are telling me that it is actually nonsense? :veryangry:
July 18, 1768: In an instant, Immanuel Kant recognizes the fatal flaw in his philosophy of the categorical imperative when his wife asks, "Does this dress make me look fat?"
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Wim
Junior Carp
Waterboarding is torture.

And I think I'm in good company : Holder

Wim
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Holder would just get them a presidential pardon.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


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Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Horace
Jan 20 2009, 12:35 AM
From our perspective it's torture. From a medieval torturer's perspective, it's just plain lazy and incompetent.
Namby-pamby modern methods have destroyed the world that was. In the olden days, some bloke who allegedly slipped Princess Diana half a pound of English breakfast sausage would have been found guilty of high treaon and publicly disembowelled in the centre of London. Now, he gets to appear on Daytime Television and is feted by Oprah Winfrey.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm not sure things have changed that much.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Wim
Jan 20 2009, 06:30 AM
Waterboarding is torture.

And I think I'm in good company : Holder

Wim
Quote:
 
As a practical matter, Holder said torture does not lead to reliable intelligence.


It is interesting that he needs to try to buttress the point with a utilitarian argument (right or wrong). Presumably if torture could be made to lead to reliable intelligence it would be more acceptable?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

Attorney General-designate Eric Holder testifies on Capitol Hill in Washington, AP – Attorney General-designate Eric Holder testifies on Capitol Hill in Washington, Thursday, January 15, …

WASHINGTON – With just three words, Attorney General-designate Eric Holder capped years of angry debate over U.S. counterterrorism policy and declared a major break from the Bush administration.

"Waterboarding is torture," said Holder, President-elect Barack Obama's pick to run the Justice Department.


:thumb:
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Jan 19 2009, 02:54 PM
Fvck Kant ! ;)
Is that the German spelling?
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Axtremus
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ivorythumper
Jan 20 2009, 09:42 AM
Presumably if torture could be made to lead to reliable intelligence it would be more acceptable?
Yes.
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