| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Is waterboarding torture? | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 19 2009, 07:36 AM (979 Views) | |
| George K | Jan 19 2009, 07:36 AM Post #1 |
|
Finally
|
Well, is it? |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| Klaus | Jan 19 2009, 07:45 AM Post #2 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Yes, of course. I don't know any reasonable definition of "torture" under which it isn't. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
![]() |
|
| Red Rice | Jan 19 2009, 07:58 AM Post #3 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Simulation of death by drowning probably qualifies. |
|
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool. I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss! - Cecil Lewis | |
![]() |
|
| VPG | Jan 19 2009, 07:59 AM Post #4 |
|
Pisa-Carp
|
Is cutting off the head of a WSJ reporter on TV torture? I'll bet it was for his famely. George, I think you should have a fourth option, I don't give a crap. |
|
I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK! "People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look." Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971 | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Jan 19 2009, 08:00 AM Post #5 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
You would if it was done to you. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| VPG | Jan 19 2009, 08:03 AM Post #6 |
|
Pisa-Carp
|
If I cut someones head off. I would deserve to be Waterboarded, and a whole lot more. |
|
I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK! "People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look." Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971 | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Jan 19 2009, 08:03 AM Post #7 |
|
I know I live by my own dictionary, but for me it has to involve physical pain for it to qualify as torture. Simulation of drowning is close, and I know it's all semantics, but I would define water boarding as more of a harsh interrogation or "mental game" (not to put it lightly) technique than actual "torture". |
![]() |
|
| Copper | Jan 19 2009, 08:05 AM Post #8 |
|
Shortstop
|
Whether or not it matters depends on the circumstances. When it is done to someone who richly deserves it and especially if it yields information that saves others - that's one thing. When it’s done to you that’s another. This isn’t a zero-sum game both sides have legitimate opinions. |
|
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
![]() |
|
| Klaus | Jan 19 2009, 08:13 AM Post #9 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
You can certainly discuss whether it is justified to use torture in some circumstances (such as the ticking time bomb scenaria), but that does not change what is torture and what isn't. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Jan 19 2009, 08:14 AM Post #10 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
There are some subjects where both sides can have legitimate opinions, and some where I cannot accept that. For example, I will not agree that a person of good conscience can believe that slavery is OK. I just won't accept that. And I don't believe that a person of good conscience can believe that torture is OK. As to whether waterboarding is torture ... I think it's fairly clear. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| Copper | Jan 19 2009, 08:34 AM Post #11 |
|
Shortstop
|
If you daughter were moments from danger and the water-boarding might prevent it, what would your good conscience advise? Mine would advise - OK. |
|
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 08:44 AM Post #12 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
The problem is you do not know ahead of time that torture will produce the information you need. Therefore, you are simply taking out your anger and frustration on a fellow human being without knowing that what you are doing will produce results. Torture is wrong. Waterboarding is torture. Therefore waterboarding is wrong. Torture is a tool of the totalitarian state, not a constitutional republic. |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Jan 19 2009, 08:45 AM Post #13 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
There are lots of things that I would do, as a father, that I wouldn't want society to condone. If I came across some kid raping my daughter, I'd bash his head into the ground until it was nothing but mush. But I wouldn't want society to condone that. We don't make decisions about what the laws should be based on what we'd want when we are personally involved. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 08:49 AM Post #14 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
At least not when it applies to such violent acts. I agree Quirt. I would be right there with you bashing the head of such a person but I do not want to give the government the power to do such things unimpeded. |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Jan 19 2009, 09:02 AM Post #15 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
If waterboarding is torture, then by definition we torture our own troops? I don't think that the SERE tests qualify as torture by any stretch of the word, so waterboarding per se cannot be considered torture. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Jan 19 2009, 09:24 AM Post #16 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
|
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| Aqua Letifer | Jan 19 2009, 09:27 AM Post #17 |
|
ZOOOOOM!
|
From what I hear, the SERE tests are not the same thing as waterboarding. I think the distinction is important enough to dismiss your analogy. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
![]() |
|
| George K | Jan 19 2009, 09:35 AM Post #18 |
|
Finally
|
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23220
|
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| Mark | Jan 19 2009, 09:36 AM Post #19 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Especially since the people doing the SERE test are "Freindly" and on your side. You know they will not let you come to harm. When you are incarcerated by your enemy and they do this kind of thing, that knowledge of "I will be ok, these are my homeboys" does not exist and therefore it crosses the line into torture. Not cool. |
|
___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
![]() |
|
| George K | Jan 19 2009, 09:39 AM Post #20 |
|
Finally
|
So, it's not the action, it's the intent that makes it torture? |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| ivorythumper | Jan 19 2009, 09:43 AM Post #21 |
|
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
|
It's not an analogy. We waterboard our own troops. The question at hand is whether waterboarding is torture. Chris Hitchens underwent waterboarding in a controlled experiment. Was he tortured? No. DId he claim it was torture? Yes. Was the event tortuous for him? No doubt. But let's be clear what is being asked here. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
![]() |
|
| John D'Oh | Jan 19 2009, 10:01 AM Post #22 |
|
MAMIL
|
As a baby my son subjected me to a systematic programme of sleep deprivation. He also vomited on me and pretty much forced me to wipe his arse. The fact that he did it doesn't give the CIA the right to do likewise. To answer the original question, yes, waterboarding is torture. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
![]() |
|
| Dewey | Jan 19 2009, 10:42 AM Post #23 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Yes, waterboarding is torture. |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| OperaTenor | Jan 19 2009, 02:19 PM Post #24 |
|
Pisa-Carp
|
Well put, Quirt.
|
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Klaus | Jan 19 2009, 02:25 PM Post #25 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Hey, but what about the categorical imperative? All my live I lived according to this great ideal from Kant, and now you are telling me that it is actually nonsense?
|
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
![]() |
|
![]() Our users say it best: "Zetaboards is the best forum service I have ever used." |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |









11:07 PM Jul 12