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Is waterboarding torture?
Yes 20 (71.4%)
No 8 (28.6%)
I'm not sure 0 (0%)
Total Votes: 28
Is waterboarding torture?
Topic Started: Jan 19 2009, 07:36 AM (979 Views)
George K
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Finally
Well, is it?
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yes, of course. I don't know any reasonable definition of "torture" under which it isn't.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Simulation of death by drowning probably qualifies.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

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VPG
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Is cutting off the head of a WSJ reporter on TV torture? I'll bet it was for his famely. George, I think you should have a fourth option, I don't give a crap.
I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK!


"People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look."
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QuirtEvans
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You would if it was done to you.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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VPG
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QuirtEvans
Jan 19 2009, 08:00 AM
You would if it was done to you.
If I cut someones head off. I would deserve to be Waterboarded, and a whole lot more.
I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK!


"People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look."
Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971

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The 89th Key
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I know I live by my own dictionary, but for me it has to involve physical pain for it to qualify as torture. Simulation of drowning is close, and I know it's all semantics, but I would define water boarding as more of a harsh interrogation or "mental game" (not to put it lightly) technique than actual "torture".
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Copper
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Shortstop

Whether or not it matters depends on the circumstances.

When it is done to someone who richly deserves it and especially if it yields information that saves others - that's one thing.

When it’s done to you that’s another.

This isn’t a zero-sum game both sides have legitimate opinions.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Klaus
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Copper
Jan 19 2009, 08:05 AM
Whether or not it matters depends on the circumstances.

When it is done to someone who richly deserves it and especially if it yields information that saves others - that's one thing.

When it’s done to you that’s another.

This isn’t a zero-sum game both sides have legitimate opinions.
You can certainly discuss whether it is justified to use torture in some circumstances (such as the ticking time bomb scenaria), but that does not change what is torture and what isn't.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Copper
Jan 19 2009, 08:05 AM


This isn’t a zero-sum game both sides have legitimate opinions.
There are some subjects where both sides can have legitimate opinions, and some where I cannot accept that.

For example, I will not agree that a person of good conscience can believe that slavery is OK. I just won't accept that.

And I don't believe that a person of good conscience can believe that torture is OK.

As to whether waterboarding is torture ... I think it's fairly clear.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Copper
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Shortstop
QuirtEvans
Jan 19 2009, 08:14 AM

And I don't believe that a person of good conscience can believe that torture is OK.

As to whether waterboarding is torture ... I think it's fairly clear.

If you daughter were moments from danger and the water-boarding might prevent it, what would your good conscience advise?

Mine would advise - OK.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
The problem is you do not know ahead of time that torture will produce the information you need.

Therefore, you are simply taking out your anger and frustration on a fellow human being without knowing that what you are doing will produce results.

Torture is wrong.

Waterboarding is torture.

Therefore waterboarding is wrong.

Torture is a tool of the totalitarian state, not a constitutional republic.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Copper
Jan 19 2009, 08:34 AM
QuirtEvans
Jan 19 2009, 08:14 AM

And I don't believe that a person of good conscience can believe that torture is OK.

As to whether waterboarding is torture ... I think it's fairly clear.

If you daughter were moments from danger and the water-boarding might prevent it, what would your good conscience advise?

Mine would advise - OK.
There are lots of things that I would do, as a father, that I wouldn't want society to condone.

If I came across some kid raping my daughter, I'd bash his head into the ground until it was nothing but mush. But I wouldn't want society to condone that.

We don't make decisions about what the laws should be based on what we'd want when we are personally involved.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
At least not when it applies to such violent acts.

I agree Quirt. I would be right there with you bashing the head of such a person but I do not want to give the government the power to do such things unimpeded.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
If waterboarding is torture, then by definition we torture our own troops? I don't think that the SERE tests qualify as torture by any stretch of the word, so waterboarding per se cannot be considered torture.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Klaus
Jan 19 2009, 07:45 AM
Yes, of course. I don't know any reasonable definition of "torture" under which it isn't.
:uparrow:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
ivorythumper
Jan 19 2009, 09:02 AM
If waterboarding is torture, then by definition we torture our own troops? I don't think that the SERE tests qualify as torture by any stretch of the word, so waterboarding per se cannot be considered torture.
From what I hear, the SERE tests are not the same thing as waterboarding. I think the distinction is important enough to dismiss your analogy.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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George K
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Finally
Aqua Letifer
Jan 19 2009, 09:27 AM
From what I hear, the SERE tests are not the same thing as waterboarding. I think the distinction is important enough to dismiss your analogy.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=23220
Quote:
 
When captured you are brought to an initial holding facility. Hands and feet bound and hooded you are thrown into a barbed wire holding cell. As a former football player and wrestler I felt confident that I had that “John Wayne” attitude, Name, Rank and Serial Number….nothing more. Life and the Navy were about to teach this million dollar trained, blond headed, college, Fly Boy a new and most important lesson.

When brought into the first “interrogation”, hooded and hands bound, I was asked the basic questions, no problems...then I was asked a question -- the first among many not permitted under the Geneva Convention. Congress, the media and some of the public have forgotten a very basic and important tenant of the Geneva Convention. Terrorists, insurgents, IED Specialists, Suicide Bombers and all those not wearing a uniform in war are not in any form protected by the Geneva Convention. I did not answer the interrogators’ questions: then the fun and games began.

Carefully using a technique of grabbing your shirt at the pockets and wrapping his fists so that his knuckles pressed into the muscles of my breast plate, the instructor flung me across the room karate style and into a corrugated wall. No more questions; around and around the room I flew, a dance which while blind folded and hooded made me feel like “Raggedy Andy” in a tug of war with two bullying kids. Following the first interrogation we were loaded into trucks, bound and hooded, head to who knows were...for the first time real fear starts to set in and you look for inner strength in your heart, training and comrades.

Arriving at the POW Camp I was kept hooded and placed in a small box, 2 feet wide, 3 feet long and maybe 3 feet high. I was left the fetal position, sitting on my butt, stripped nearly naked (just week old BVD’s) and left sealed with your defecation can inside your box. Heat, cold, isolation, no communications, and constant noise, music, propaganda, coupled with verbal abuse by your captors is the norm, 24/7. Every twenty minutes or so the guards come by your box and rattle it, sneaking up and demanding to hear your War Criminal Number (thanks again, Jane, for the classification). No more name, rank or serial number, they want some real answers to real security questions. You agonize in your isolation as your hear other members of your group being pulled out for more “personal one on one interrogation”. Then it’s your turn. Pulled from your box you are again brought in for questioning. If unhappy with your answers or no answers, the “Raggedy Andy” dance began again with vigor in the cold night air.

Then it was time for the dreaded waterboard. What I didn’t know then, but I do now, is that as in all interrogations, both for real world hostile terrorists (non-uniformed combatants) and in S.E.R.E. a highly trained group of doctors, psychologists, interrogators, and strap-in and strap-out rescue teams are always present. My first experience on the “waterboard” was to be laying on my back, on a board with my body at a 30 degree slope, feet in the air, head down, face-up. The straps are all-confining, with the only movement of your body that of the ability to move your head. Slowly water is poured in your face, up your nose, and some in your mouth. The questions from interrogators and amounts of water increase with each unsuccessful response. Soon they have your complete attention as you begin to believe you are going to drown.

Scared, alone, cold and in total lack of control, you learn to “cooperate” to the best of your ability to protect your life. For each person that level of cooperation or resistance is different. You must be tested and trained to know how to respond in the real combat world. Escape was the key to freedom and reward.

Those students escaping would be rewarded with a meal (apple, and PB&J sandwich) was what we had been told by our instructors. On my next journey to interrogation I saw an opportunity to escape. I fled into the woods, naked and cold, and hid. My captors came searching with AK-47’s blazing, and calls to “kill the American War Criminal” in broken English. After an hour of successfully evading, the voices called out in perfect English. “O.K., problem’s over…you escaped, come in for your sandwich.” When I stood up and revealed my position I was met by a crowd of angry enemy guards, “stupid American Criminal”! Back to the Waterboard I went.

This time we went right to the water hose in the face, and a wet towel held tightly on my forehead so that I could not move my head. I had embarrassed my captors and they would now show me that they had total control. The most agonizing and frightful moments are when the wet towel is placed over your nose and mouth and the water hose is placed directly over your mouth. Holding your breath, bucking at the straps, straining to remain conscious, you believe with all your heart that, that, you are going to die.

S.E.R.E. training is not pleasant, but it is critical to properly prepare our most endangered combat forces for the reality of enemy capture. Was I “tortured” by the US military? No. Was I trained in an effort to protect my life and the lives of other American fighting men? Yes! Freedom is not Free, nor does it come without sacrifice. Every good American understands this basic principle of our country and prays for the young men and women who have sacrificed and are out on the front lines protecting us today.


A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Especially since the people doing the SERE test are "Freindly" and on your side. You know they will not let you come to harm.

When you are incarcerated by your enemy and they do this kind of thing, that knowledge of "I will be ok, these are my homeboys" does not exist and therefore it crosses the line into torture.

Not cool.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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George K
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Finally
So, it's not the action, it's the intent that makes it torture?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Aqua Letifer
Jan 19 2009, 09:27 AM
ivorythumper
Jan 19 2009, 09:02 AM
If waterboarding is torture, then by definition we torture our own troops? I don't think that the SERE tests qualify as torture by any stretch of the word, so waterboarding per se cannot be considered torture.
From what I hear, the SERE tests are not the same thing as waterboarding. I think the distinction is important enough to dismiss your analogy.
It's not an analogy. We waterboard our own troops. The question at hand is whether waterboarding is torture.

Chris Hitchens underwent waterboarding in a controlled experiment. Was he tortured? No. DId he claim it was torture? Yes. Was the event tortuous for him? No doubt. But let's be clear what is being asked here.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
George K
Jan 19 2009, 09:39 AM
So, it's not the action, it's the intent that makes it torture?
As a baby my son subjected me to a systematic programme of sleep deprivation. He also vomited on me and pretty much forced me to wipe his arse. The fact that he did it doesn't give the CIA the right to do likewise.

To answer the original question, yes, waterboarding is torture.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yes, waterboarding is torture.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

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OperaTenor
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QuirtEvans
Jan 19 2009, 08:45 AM
Copper
Jan 19 2009, 08:34 AM
QuirtEvans
Jan 19 2009, 08:14 AM

And I don't believe that a person of good conscience can believe that torture is OK.

As to whether waterboarding is torture ... I think it's fairly clear.

If you daughter were moments from danger and the water-boarding might prevent it, what would your good conscience advise?

Mine would advise - OK.
There are lots of things that I would do, as a father, that I wouldn't want society to condone.

If I came across some kid raping my daughter, I'd bash his head into the ground until it was nothing but mush. But I wouldn't want society to condone that.

We don't make decisions about what the laws should be based on what we'd want when we are personally involved.
Well put, Quirt.

:thumb:


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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
We don't make decisions about what the laws should be based on what we'd want when we are personally involved.


Hey, but what about the categorical imperative?

All my live I lived according to this great ideal from Kant, and now you are telling me that it is actually nonsense? :veryangry:
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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