Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
I'm sorry
Topic Started: Jan 11 2009, 11:53 PM (1,826 Views)
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Improviso
Jan 12 2009, 08:07 AM
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:40 AM
I have shown no disrespect toward Jewish members of the forum.
Actually... that's not your call. It's the call of the jewish members on this forum.
Gotta add reasonableness into the equation, or else you give listeners complete control.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Jan 12 2009, 06:22 AM
Quote:
 
You were?

How about "liberalism is a mental disease"?

Is that called being sensitive to those around you? Is that called common decency?

I'm sorry, Larry, but it's hard to take this speech seriously when you don't walk the walk yourself.



Well Quirt, does being a liberal define who you are, or is it a viewpoint? If being a liberal defines who you are, welcome to religion.

It doesn't really matter, Larry. You're telling people who think that they are liberal that they are suffering from mental illness. Even if you believe it's true, that's not sensitive, and that's not common decency.

Telling them on individual issues that they are wrong is fair game. Telling them that their position on individual issues ignores the facts is fair game. Critiquing their overall method of analysis or thinking is close to the line, but an argument can be made that it's fair game.

Telling them that they are mentally ill not fair game, not if your standard is sensitivity and common decency.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
It doesn't really matter, Larry. You're telling people who think that they are liberal that they are suffering from mental illness. Even if you believe it's true, that's not sensitive, and that's not common decency.


Well Quirt, what better proof do we need to show that modern liberalism is a mental disease than the issue at hand.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Axtremus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Improviso
Jan 12 2009, 07:29 AM
Her insensitivity toward the jewish members on this forum go beyond the pale.
Whao, back up there.

She criticizes Israel policies, arguably very harshly. But she is not "insensitive" to the Jewish members.

I can criticize many atrocities committed by Germany in WW II and ask Klaus to comment, and that should not be considered "insensitive" to our German members.

I can criticize many imperialistic transgressions committed by England pre-WW II and ask {the D'Ohs, Moonbat, ***musical princess***, Phykel} to comment, and that should not be considered "insensitive" to our British members.

We have no problem posting anti-Islam articles, and I seriously doubt you folks would have any restraint not calling out any Muslim member to read/comment should we have any Muslim member. (Too bad we don't, not to my knowledge anyway.)

In that very same sense, KathyK should be able to criticize Israel without being considered "insensitive" to the Jewish members.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
DivaDeb
Jan 12 2009, 08:28 AM
it's certainly *not* "ridiculous" to call what has been presented here, "anti-semitic"

If you prefer that a group of people suffer continuous unprovoked attacks, for years, to affording the government and military of that group of people the right, and even obligation, to do whatever it takes to stop those attacks, you have something against the group people for certain. No doubt about it, no matter how many ways you try to crochet the threads of your argument to look like you're making something pretty, it's still an argument that says you think a certain group of people do not have a right to self-defense...which is as good as saying they do not have the right to live. That's "anti" with clarity and certainty, and since this group of people is nearly entirely semitic, we have an exceedingly fair term.

The problem there is that for the most part Palestinians are "Semites", also. So, doesn't that make YOU and anti-Semite, too? :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Improviso
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Phlebas
Jan 12 2009, 08:18 AM
If I were 110% positive that I was right about something, posted it on a forum where the members are pretty much smart, educated, and well read, and the reaction I got varied from disagreement to revulsion, I would not continue to pile on post after post arguing that position. I would try to figure out what it was that offended so many people.
Damn right. :thumb:

Even I'm smart enough to know when to STFU. :D
Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments
and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism.

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Improviso
Jan 12 2009, 08:47 AM


Even I'm smart enough to know when to STFU. :D
I want a second opinion from Plays, please. :hat:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Improviso
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
:tongue:
Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments
and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism.

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Improviso
Jan 12 2009, 08:18 AM
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:40 AM
speak out against US actions in Iraq and you're a traitor, anti-American and hate your country: Speak out against Israel's actions and you're an anti-Semite.
Speak out against gay marriage and you're a homophobe. Speak out against the plight of black people and you're a racist.

Yea... labels suck, don't they Kathy?
You know something? At one time or another I've been called an ant-Semite, a racist AND a homophobe on TNCR--I won the Triple Crown! :lol2:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I can criticize many atrocities committed by Germany in WW II and ask Klaus to comment, and that should not be considered "insensitive" to our German members.


Last time I checked WWII was over, and Klaus being a German doesn't put him any closer to the history of it than anyone else.

Quote:
 
I can criticize many imperialistic transgressions committed by England pre-WW II and ask {the D'Ohs, Moonbat, ***musical princess***, Phykel} to comment, and that should not be considered "insensitive" to our British members.


Again, their being British puts them no closer to things of history than anyone else. Americans killed lots of Indians too - but no one here did it..

The Israelis on the other hand, are surrounded by a people whose religion teaches them to hate them and to not stop until they have driven them out of their country. This isn't historical information, it's happening as we speak.

You can't see the difference? Good grief......
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
TomK
Jan 12 2009, 08:45 AM
DivaDeb
Jan 12 2009, 08:28 AM
it's certainly *not* "ridiculous" to call what has been presented here, "anti-semitic"

If you prefer that a group of people suffer continuous unprovoked attacks, for years, to affording the government and military of that group of people the right, and even obligation, to do whatever it takes to stop those attacks, you have something against the group people for certain. No doubt about it, no matter how many ways you try to crochet the threads of your argument to look like you're making something pretty, it's still an argument that says you think a certain group of people do not have a right to self-defense...which is as good as saying they do not have the right to live. That's "anti" with clarity and certainty, and since this group of people is nearly entirely semitic, we have an exceedingly fair term.

The problem there is that for the most part Palestinians are "Semites", also. So, doesn't that make YOU and anti-Semite, too? :)
no Tom, it does not, because I have not espoused the notion that any people should be denied the right to defend themselves. So, while there are plenty of 'anti' sentiments in these threads, you'll not find any you can attribute to me.

Perhaps "anti-Israeli" is a more specifically correct term because it still acknowledges that there is a clear bias against the citizenry of the national entity Israel, and not just the nation itself. The bias is inherent in opinions expressed about what that state's elected government is 'allowed' to do on its citizen's behalf, as opposed to the what another state's elected government is "allowed" to do on its own citizen's behalf.

It went past the pale with the post that basically implied that Gaza has been doing nothing more harmful than lobbing smoke bombs over the fence.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Piano*Dad
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp
There is a time-honored tradition of people shielding themselves from criticism by hiding behind the simple claim, "I'm just criticizing the policies of Israel."

This is a claim that has been the subject of substantial recent discussion. Anyone who continues to use this claim as their shield, while wielding the hoariest academic nonsense (Finkelstein and Pappe, for instance) as a club against their enemies had better be prepared for hostile responses.


With his usual brevity and wit, Tom Friedman writes, "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest." This is quite relevant here, I think.

That right wing fanatic Larry Summers put it rather forcefully this way in 2002,

Quote:
 
I speak with you today not as President of the University but as a concerned member of our community about something that I never thought I would become seriously worried about-the issue of anti-Semitism.

I am Jewish, identified but hardly devout. In my lifetime, anti-Semitism has been remote from my experience. My family all left Europe at the beginning of the 20th century. The Holocaust is for me a matter of history, not personal memory. To be sure, there were country clubs where I grew up that had few if any Jewish members, but not ones that included people I knew. My experience in college and graduate school, as a faculty member, as a government official-all involved little notice of my religion.

Indeed, I was struck during my years in the Clinton administration that the existence of an economic leadership team with people like Robert Rubin, Alan Greenspan, Charlene Barshefsky and many others that was very heavily Jewish passed without comment or notice-it was something that would have been inconceivable a generation or two ago, as indeed it would have been inconceivable a generation or two ago that Harvard could have a Jewish president.

Without thinking about it much, I attributed all of this to progress- to an ascendancy of enlightenment and tolerance. A view that prejudice is increasingly put aside. A view that while the politics of the Middle East were enormously complex, and contentious, the question of the right of a Jewish state to exist had been settled in the affirmative by the world community.

But today, I am less complacent. Less complacent and comfortable because there is disturbing evidence of an upturn in anti-Semitism globally, and also because of some developments closer to home.

Consider some of the global events of the last year:

- There have been synagogue burnings, physical assaults on Jews, or the painting of swastikas on Jewish memorials in every country in Europe. Observers in many countries have pointed to the worst outbreak of attacks against the Jews since the Second World War.

- Candidates who denied the significance of the Holocaust reached the runoff stage of elections for the nation's highest office in France and Denmark. State-sponsored television stations in many nations of the world spew anti-Zionist propaganda.

- The United Nations-sponsored World Conference on Racism-while failing to mention human rights abuses in China, Rwanda, or anyplace in the Arab world- spoke of Israel's policies prior to recent struggles under the Barak government as constituting ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. The NGO [non-governmental organization] declaration at the same conference was even more virulent.

I could go on. But I want to bring this closer to home. Of course academic communities should be and always will be places that allow any viewpoint to be expressed. And certainly there is much to be debated about the Middle East and much in Israel's foreign and defense policy that can be and should be vigorously challenged.

But where anti-Semitism and views that are profoundly anti-Israeli have traditionally been the primary preserve of poorly educated right-wing populists, profoundly anti-Israel views are increasingly finding support in progressive intellectual communities. Serious and thoughtful people are advocating and taking actions that are anti-Semitic in their effect if not their intent.

For example:

- Hundreds of European academics have called for an end to support for Israeli researchers, though not for an end to support for researchers from any other nation.

- Israeli scholars this past spring were forced off the board of an international literature journal.

- At the same rallies where protesters, many of them university students, condemn the IMF [International Monetary Fund] and global capitalism and raise questions about globalization, it is becoming increasingly common to also lash out at Israel. Indeed, at the anti-IMF rallies last spring, chants were heard equating Hitler and Sharon.

- Events to raise funds for organizations of questionable political provenance that in some cases were later found to support terrorism have been held by student organizations on this and other campuses with at least modest success and very little criticism.

- And some here at Harvard and some at universities across the country have called for the University to single out Israel among all nations as the lone country where it is inappropriate for any part of the University's endowment to be invested. I hasten to say the University has categorically rejected this suggestion.

We should always respect the academic freedom of everyone to take any position. We should also recall that academic freedom does not include freedom from criticism. The only antidote to dangerous ideas is strong alternatives vigorously advocated.

I have always, throughout my life, been put off by those who heard the sound of breaking glass, in every insult or slight, and conjured up images of Hitler's Kristallnacht at any disagreement with Israel. Such views have always seemed to me alarmist if not slightly hysterical. But I have to say that while they still seem to me unwarranted, they seem rather less alarmist in the world of today than they did a year ago.

I would like nothing more than to be wrong. It is my greatest hope and prayer that the idea of a rise of anti-Semitism proves to be a self-denying prophecy- a prediction that carries the seeds of its own falsification. But this depends on all of us.1


The responses to Jimmy Carter's recent book provides many more examples of how good people can take understandable umbrage at the kind of one-sided nonsense that often passes for common sense in today's radical left.


Having said all this ..... Larry, cut it out.


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
DivaDeb
Jan 12 2009, 08:58 AM
TomK
Jan 12 2009, 08:45 AM
DivaDeb
Jan 12 2009, 08:28 AM
it's certainly *not* "ridiculous" to call what has been presented here, "anti-semitic"

If you prefer that a group of people suffer continuous unprovoked attacks, for years, to affording the government and military of that group of people the right, and even obligation, to do whatever it takes to stop those attacks, you have something against the group people for certain. No doubt about it, no matter how many ways you try to crochet the threads of your argument to look like you're making something pretty, it's still an argument that says you think a certain group of people do not have a right to self-defense...which is as good as saying they do not have the right to live. That's "anti" with clarity and certainty, and since this group of people is nearly entirely semitic, we have an exceedingly fair term.

The problem there is that for the most part Palestinians are "Semites", also. So, doesn't that make YOU and anti-Semite, too? :)
no Tom, it does not, because I have not espoused the notion that any people should be denied the right to defend themselves. So, while there are plenty of 'anti' sentiments in these threads, you'll not find any you can attribute to me.

Perhaps "anti-Israeli" is a more specifically correct term because it still acknowledges that there is a clear bias against the citizenry of the national entity Israel, and not just the nation itself. The bias is inherent in opinions expressed about what that state's elected government is 'allowed' to do on its citizen's behalf, as opposed to the what another state's elected government is "allowed" to do on its own citizen's behalf.

It went past the pale with the post that basically implied that Gaza has been doing nothing more harmful than lobbing smoke bombs over the fence.
You know, I might have agreed with you if I hadn't been to Gaza and the West Bank, (admittedly about 10 years ago,) and seen how differently their lives are than those of Israelis.

I can say honestly that if I was treated like the Palestinians I would protest, too. I kow they lost a war, but most of these people weren't even alive when the war was waged and the few that were were peripheral at best.

Gaza is one huge South Bronx with with minimal education opportunities and near starving conditions for most of it's inhabitants. True they elected Hamas and should be concentrating on building up economic conditions--but it's not like anyone there ever went to high school to even understand the problem.

They are lashing out--against Israel who honestly wasn't the best steward of Gaza and the people there when they had control. But on the other side Arafat and the PLO did much more damage to the Palestinians than even the Israelis did.

The Palestinians were squeezed by the Israelis and the PLO and now the Israelis and Hamas--and I'm not saying that they aren't at fault a good deal, but the fault isn't just black and white (except for Arafat,) everybody shares some responsibility.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
apple
one of the angels
i recall being labeled antisemetic.. it really was one of the worst days of my life, to tell you the truth. it was so unfair.
it behooves me to behold
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
apple
Jan 12 2009, 09:19 AM
i recall being labeled antisemetic.. it really was one of the worst days of my life, to tell you the truth. it was so unfair.
And it was actually Larry (and me, of course) that came to you defense. :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
kathyk
Member Avatar
Pisa-Carp
There are right wing fanatics PD and then there are the left wing Jews, like Thomas Friedman who have made very strange bed fellows with the neo-cons. I can't remember if it was Juan Cole's blog or some other writer who had received a letter from a liberal Jewish woman distressed over his views on Israel. She went on to expound upon how every policy position he had ever taken in the past resonated so completely with her and how could it be, then, that he took such a different position on the Middle East. The blogger then went on to point out that she should take note of the fact that her positions on the Middle East were essentially some same as Dick Cheney's. Talk about cognitive dissonance! I've always liked Thomas Friedman. I knew there was a serious disconnect, however, when he came out in support of the war against Iraq. He at least has had the common sense and decency to publicly acknowledge how wrong he was about the Iraq war. I'm not really sure where he stands on Israel policy - based on the comment you posted, it sounds like he's with the hardliners. Doesn't surprise me. It would also not surprise me to see his views on Israel morph.

For all your bashing of Finkelstein and Pappe, it's funny you would pick your long quote from Summers whose tenure as president of Harvard has not been without a good amount controversy. I do have to agree with him, however, that calling for the banning of Israeli academics is beyond the pall; as was Dershowitz's virtual jihad against Finkelstein's tenure.

Deb. You have totally mischaracterized what I said about Hamas. When I made the comment comparing the Qassam rockets to smoke bombs (actually, I think I said fire crackers), I was speaking in terms one discrete set of events: The 80 or so that fell in the desert without harming anyone after Israel had launched a fairly major attack against Hamas in November which effectively ended the truce, and the fact that Hamas sought reinistatement of the truce in December but Israel rejected the offer, choosing instead to go full force into Gaza. I stand by the comparison, those 80 or so rockets (as misguided as they were, both figuartively and literally) that harmed no one are a much, much lesser evil than the forces launched against Gaza that have killed upwards of 800 and injured and maimed over 3,000. I have never defended Hamas, and your post implying I have is insulting and indicative that you really haven't read much of anything I've posted on the subject.

Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Deb. You have totally mischaracterized what I said about Hamas.


She didn't mischaracterize you at all. She nailed you square between the eyes.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
kathyk
Member Avatar
Pisa-Carp
apple
Jan 12 2009, 09:19 AM
i recall being labeled antisemetic.. it really was one of the worst days of my life, to tell you the truth. it was so unfair.
And I am ashamed to say that I was a minor participant in that pillorying because you and I were mortal pixel enemies at the time. I guess it's rather karmic that the same people who engaged in that are the some of the same ones who lobbed the smear at me.

Fortunately, this has become such a common tactic that most people now recognize it for what it is.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
No.

No.

and

I don't think so.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
apple
one of the angels
oh well..

kind of funny isn't it.
it behooves me to behold
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
kathyk
Member Avatar
Pisa-Carp
Here's a great article on the issue.

Snips:

The title of the concluding chapter in Alan Dershowitz's The Case for Israel (2003), "Israel — the Jew among Nations", is another example. Israel, a country with reportedly one of the most powerful armies in the world, which it does not hesitate to employ against Palestinians to facilitate the colonization of more Palestinian land, is not a human rights abuser, but rather a victim of our irrational hatred. It is not Israel's treatment of the Palestinians that is the issue. It is us, the rest of the world. We are so blind, according to the dark logic of this repertoire, that we cannot see that our concern for the fate of the Palestinians is merely a faux finish on our inner Nazi.
--------

Increasingly, we see Israel moving away from a Luntz-type strategy into outright intimidation through character assassination. The further Israel moves away from defending its position and the more it relies on the strategy of demonizing the holders of contrary positions as 'Jew-haters' wearing liberal wool, the clearer it will be to all that the point is to ensure that the real issues are not addressed.

The increasing use of the Anti-semitism defense
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
kathyk
Member Avatar
Pisa-Carp
apple
Jan 12 2009, 09:52 AM
oh well..

kind of funny isn't it.
It was an object lesson and wake up call for me. Personal attacks, whether delivered in a "constructive" manner (as was the misguided intention of that wretched dressing down you endured) or in a hostile manner are almost never warranted and hardly ever yield anything but negative results.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Do any of you now see why I feel no remorse?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
OperaTenor
Member Avatar
Pisa-Carp
Yes, but not for the reason you want us to think.



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Radu
Member Avatar
Senior Carp
DivaDeb
Jan 12 2009, 08:28 AM
I am only commenting this one time to make it clear to our friends in Israel that I am with them in the only way I can be at this point, in my thoughts and prayers. I wish I had something more concrete to offer. God speed.
Thanks a lot !
Posted Image
------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!"
The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply