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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 11 2009, 11:53 PM (1,826 Views) | |
| QuirtEvans | Jan 12 2009, 08:29 AM Post #26 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Gotta add reasonableness into the equation, or else you give listeners complete control. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 12 2009, 08:33 AM Post #27 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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It doesn't really matter, Larry. You're telling people who think that they are liberal that they are suffering from mental illness. Even if you believe it's true, that's not sensitive, and that's not common decency. Telling them on individual issues that they are wrong is fair game. Telling them that their position on individual issues ignores the facts is fair game. Critiquing their overall method of analysis or thinking is close to the line, but an argument can be made that it's fair game. Telling them that they are mentally ill not fair game, not if your standard is sensitivity and common decency. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Larry | Jan 12 2009, 08:42 AM Post #28 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Well Quirt, what better proof do we need to show that modern liberalism is a mental disease than the issue at hand. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Axtremus | Jan 12 2009, 08:44 AM Post #29 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Whao, back up there. She criticizes Israel policies, arguably very harshly. But she is not "insensitive" to the Jewish members. I can criticize many atrocities committed by Germany in WW II and ask Klaus to comment, and that should not be considered "insensitive" to our German members. I can criticize many imperialistic transgressions committed by England pre-WW II and ask {the D'Ohs, Moonbat, ***musical princess***, Phykel} to comment, and that should not be considered "insensitive" to our British members. We have no problem posting anti-Islam articles, and I seriously doubt you folks would have any restraint not calling out any Muslim member to read/comment should we have any Muslim member. (Too bad we don't, not to my knowledge anyway.) In that very same sense, KathyK should be able to criticize Israel without being considered "insensitive" to the Jewish members. |
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| TomK | Jan 12 2009, 08:45 AM Post #30 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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The problem there is that for the most part Palestinians are "Semites", also. So, doesn't that make YOU and anti-Semite, too?
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| Improviso | Jan 12 2009, 08:47 AM Post #31 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Damn right. Even I'm smart enough to know when to STFU.
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Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism. We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 12 2009, 08:48 AM Post #32 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I want a second opinion from Plays, please.
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| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Improviso | Jan 12 2009, 08:49 AM Post #33 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism. We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences. | |
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| TomK | Jan 12 2009, 08:54 AM Post #34 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You know something? At one time or another I've been called an ant-Semite, a racist AND a homophobe on TNCR--I won the Triple Crown!
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| Larry | Jan 12 2009, 08:56 AM Post #35 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Last time I checked WWII was over, and Klaus being a German doesn't put him any closer to the history of it than anyone else.
Again, their being British puts them no closer to things of history than anyone else. Americans killed lots of Indians too - but no one here did it.. The Israelis on the other hand, are surrounded by a people whose religion teaches them to hate them and to not stop until they have driven them out of their country. This isn't historical information, it's happening as we speak. You can't see the difference? Good grief...... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| DivaDeb | Jan 12 2009, 08:58 AM Post #36 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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no Tom, it does not, because I have not espoused the notion that any people should be denied the right to defend themselves. So, while there are plenty of 'anti' sentiments in these threads, you'll not find any you can attribute to me. Perhaps "anti-Israeli" is a more specifically correct term because it still acknowledges that there is a clear bias against the citizenry of the national entity Israel, and not just the nation itself. The bias is inherent in opinions expressed about what that state's elected government is 'allowed' to do on its citizen's behalf, as opposed to the what another state's elected government is "allowed" to do on its own citizen's behalf. It went past the pale with the post that basically implied that Gaza has been doing nothing more harmful than lobbing smoke bombs over the fence. |
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| Piano*Dad | Jan 12 2009, 09:01 AM Post #37 |
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Bull-Carp
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There is a time-honored tradition of people shielding themselves from criticism by hiding behind the simple claim, "I'm just criticizing the policies of Israel." This is a claim that has been the subject of substantial recent discussion. Anyone who continues to use this claim as their shield, while wielding the hoariest academic nonsense (Finkelstein and Pappe, for instance) as a club against their enemies had better be prepared for hostile responses. With his usual brevity and wit, Tom Friedman writes, "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction - out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest." This is quite relevant here, I think. That right wing fanatic Larry Summers put it rather forcefully this way in 2002,
The responses to Jimmy Carter's recent book provides many more examples of how good people can take understandable umbrage at the kind of one-sided nonsense that often passes for common sense in today's radical left. Having said all this ..... Larry, cut it out. |
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| TomK | Jan 12 2009, 09:16 AM Post #38 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You know, I might have agreed with you if I hadn't been to Gaza and the West Bank, (admittedly about 10 years ago,) and seen how differently their lives are than those of Israelis. I can say honestly that if I was treated like the Palestinians I would protest, too. I kow they lost a war, but most of these people weren't even alive when the war was waged and the few that were were peripheral at best. Gaza is one huge South Bronx with with minimal education opportunities and near starving conditions for most of it's inhabitants. True they elected Hamas and should be concentrating on building up economic conditions--but it's not like anyone there ever went to high school to even understand the problem. They are lashing out--against Israel who honestly wasn't the best steward of Gaza and the people there when they had control. But on the other side Arafat and the PLO did much more damage to the Palestinians than even the Israelis did. The Palestinians were squeezed by the Israelis and the PLO and now the Israelis and Hamas--and I'm not saying that they aren't at fault a good deal, but the fault isn't just black and white (except for Arafat,) everybody shares some responsibility. |
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| apple | Jan 12 2009, 09:19 AM Post #39 |
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one of the angels
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i recall being labeled antisemetic.. it really was one of the worst days of my life, to tell you the truth. it was so unfair. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| TomK | Jan 12 2009, 09:22 AM Post #40 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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And it was actually Larry (and me, of course) that came to you defense.
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| kathyk | Jan 12 2009, 09:36 AM Post #41 |
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Pisa-Carp
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There are right wing fanatics PD and then there are the left wing Jews, like Thomas Friedman who have made very strange bed fellows with the neo-cons. I can't remember if it was Juan Cole's blog or some other writer who had received a letter from a liberal Jewish woman distressed over his views on Israel. She went on to expound upon how every policy position he had ever taken in the past resonated so completely with her and how could it be, then, that he took such a different position on the Middle East. The blogger then went on to point out that she should take note of the fact that her positions on the Middle East were essentially some same as Dick Cheney's. Talk about cognitive dissonance! I've always liked Thomas Friedman. I knew there was a serious disconnect, however, when he came out in support of the war against Iraq. He at least has had the common sense and decency to publicly acknowledge how wrong he was about the Iraq war. I'm not really sure where he stands on Israel policy - based on the comment you posted, it sounds like he's with the hardliners. Doesn't surprise me. It would also not surprise me to see his views on Israel morph. For all your bashing of Finkelstein and Pappe, it's funny you would pick your long quote from Summers whose tenure as president of Harvard has not been without a good amount controversy. I do have to agree with him, however, that calling for the banning of Israeli academics is beyond the pall; as was Dershowitz's virtual jihad against Finkelstein's tenure. Deb. You have totally mischaracterized what I said about Hamas. When I made the comment comparing the Qassam rockets to smoke bombs (actually, I think I said fire crackers), I was speaking in terms one discrete set of events: The 80 or so that fell in the desert without harming anyone after Israel had launched a fairly major attack against Hamas in November which effectively ended the truce, and the fact that Hamas sought reinistatement of the truce in December but Israel rejected the offer, choosing instead to go full force into Gaza. I stand by the comparison, those 80 or so rockets (as misguided as they were, both figuartively and literally) that harmed no one are a much, much lesser evil than the forces launched against Gaza that have killed upwards of 800 and injured and maimed over 3,000. I have never defended Hamas, and your post implying I have is insulting and indicative that you really haven't read much of anything I've posted on the subject. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Larry | Jan 12 2009, 09:39 AM Post #42 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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She didn't mischaracterize you at all. She nailed you square between the eyes. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kathyk | Jan 12 2009, 09:40 AM Post #43 |
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Pisa-Carp
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And I am ashamed to say that I was a minor participant in that pillorying because you and I were mortal pixel enemies at the time. I guess it's rather karmic that the same people who engaged in that are the some of the same ones who lobbed the smear at me. Fortunately, this has become such a common tactic that most people now recognize it for what it is. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| DivaDeb | Jan 12 2009, 09:51 AM Post #44 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No. No. and I don't think so. |
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| apple | Jan 12 2009, 09:52 AM Post #45 |
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one of the angels
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oh well.. kind of funny isn't it. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| kathyk | Jan 12 2009, 10:38 AM Post #46 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Here's a great article on the issue. Snips: The title of the concluding chapter in Alan Dershowitz's The Case for Israel (2003), "Israel — the Jew among Nations", is another example. Israel, a country with reportedly one of the most powerful armies in the world, which it does not hesitate to employ against Palestinians to facilitate the colonization of more Palestinian land, is not a human rights abuser, but rather a victim of our irrational hatred. It is not Israel's treatment of the Palestinians that is the issue. It is us, the rest of the world. We are so blind, according to the dark logic of this repertoire, that we cannot see that our concern for the fate of the Palestinians is merely a faux finish on our inner Nazi. -------- Increasingly, we see Israel moving away from a Luntz-type strategy into outright intimidation through character assassination. The further Israel moves away from defending its position and the more it relies on the strategy of demonizing the holders of contrary positions as 'Jew-haters' wearing liberal wool, the clearer it will be to all that the point is to ensure that the real issues are not addressed. The increasing use of the Anti-semitism defense |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Jan 12 2009, 10:44 AM Post #47 |
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Pisa-Carp
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It was an object lesson and wake up call for me. Personal attacks, whether delivered in a "constructive" manner (as was the misguided intention of that wretched dressing down you endured) or in a hostile manner are almost never warranted and hardly ever yield anything but negative results. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Larry | Jan 12 2009, 10:44 AM Post #48 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Do any of you now see why I feel no remorse? |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| OperaTenor | Jan 12 2009, 11:05 AM Post #49 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Yes, but not for the reason you want us to think. |
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| Radu | Jan 12 2009, 12:38 PM Post #50 |
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Senior Carp
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Thanks a lot ! |
![]() ------------------------------------------------------------ "Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!" The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux) | |
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4:36 PM Jul 10