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I'm sorry
Topic Started: Jan 11 2009, 11:53 PM (1,823 Views)
Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
But not for what you think.


I'm sorry that our society has reached the point where when someone says things that are morally outrageous, others get morally outraged at someone who is morally outraged at the moral outrage to the point that they stand up to the moral outrage.

I'm sorry that we have gotten to the point that we are so concerned with "civility" that we think we have to allow those who express outrageous beliefs that are offensive and insulting, and those who express outrage end up being accused of incivility.

I'm sorry that we have become so insensitive that we don't know when something is inappropriate to discuss.

You see, I was raised to believe that you don't bring up controversial views in front of people who are affected negatively by those views. For instance - don't go to a Harley Davidson convention and start talking about what pieces of junk Harleys are. If you're in a room with black people, don't talk about the benefits of slavery (if you hold those views, I don't). Likewise, if you know ahead of time that your views on the Israeli/Palestine issue are minority, controversial views that are pro-palestinian, don't knowingly start a discussion about your support for "palestinians" in a room that contains no palestinians, but several Israelis and Jews.

It's called being sensitive to those around you. It's called common decency.

We're all free to hold whatever views you want. If you want to believe that all the Indians in America deserved to be killed, go for it. Just don't seriously try to argue your case in my presence.

Another thing I'm sorry for - that no one seemed to notice this.

My outrage came from several directions. One, the views being expressed were an insult to my intelligence, and the intelligence of most of you as well. Two, we have Jewish members here. We do NOT have any palestinian members here. It would seem to me that anyone with any consideration for others would not have put forth the argument that was put forth knowing how it might affect others.

I'm sorry that some here can get so morally outraged at those with enough balls to call a spade a spade. Political correctness is killing us all.

And finally, I'm sorry that some of you don't see the implications of allowing the outrageous stuff that has been put forth as worthy of making a stink over. I'm sorry that we seem to feel that every topic has to be "theory", in other words, parry back and forth getting more and more "intellectual", playing mental games, instead of getting down to the grit of things. I don't deal with "theory". I'm just as smart as anyone else here, but I don't feel a need to get lofty and high minded in my responses to things that matter - I deal with the dirty, gritty reality of it.

It's one thing to engage in mental masturbation over "global warming", or politics. But when a mindset that promotes the elimination of a nation is being discussed, *especially* when it's being discussed in front of people who are members of that nation.....

You see - we aren't going to solve the problem here. There are only two things we can do. We can offend those who are Israeli, and we can further promote the overall antisemitic views that are spreading all over the world. Or, we can practice common decency and keep such views to ourselves, and we can stand up and loudly challenge the views that promote and feed this antisemitic wave sweeping the world. Loudly, to the point that if someone expressing those views won't open their minds, then shout the bastards down.

We can argue details til we're blue in the face - each side will find their "evidence". The fact remains, there is a growing antisemitic worldview around the globe, and it's spreading because too many people are unaware of the truth, and too many people suffer from the skewed view of what constitutes civility that I first mentioned. Allowing it to stand with nothing more than an "I strongly disagree" just ain't gonna cut it.

I'm rambling, but I hope I've made sense.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I didn't say what I wanted to say, but I've said it, so hopefully you will get the gist of it somehow....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Radu
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Larry
Jan 11 2009, 11:53 PM


I'm rambling, but I hope I've made sense.

No, you are not rambling. You are doing an excellent job and I am grateful for it. Thanks a lot, good guy ! :thumb: :smooches:
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Jan 11 2009, 11:53 PM

You see, I was raised to believe that you don't bring up controversial views in front of people who are affected negatively by those views. For instance - don't go to a Harley Davidson convention and start talking about what pieces of junk Harleys are. If you're in a room with black people, don't talk about the benefits of slavery (if you hold those views, I don't). Likewise, if you know ahead of time that your views on the Israeli/Palestine issue are minority, controversial views that are pro-palestinian, don't knowingly start a discussion about your support for "palestinians" in a room that contains no palestinians, but several Israelis and Jews.

It's called being sensitive to those around you. It's called common decency.

We're all free to hold whatever views you want. If you want to believe that all the Indians in America deserved to be killed, go for it. Just don't seriously try to argue your case in my presence.
You were?

How about "liberalism is a mental disease"?

Is that called being sensitive to those around you? Is that called common decency?

I'm sorry, Larry, but it's hard to take this speech seriously when you don't walk the walk yourself.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Larry, your behaviour has been disgraceful and many people have told you that, even those who share your political views and whom you claim to respect. You can disagree with someone without calling them an anti-semite (which Kathy is blatantly not), you can disagree with someone without calling them stupid or evil or some other insult. It is possible to disagree - even strongly disagree without throwing out innumerable personal attacks.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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QuantumIvory
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While I would not endorse name calling in public places (and rarely in private, for that matter) there are certain instances in history where it, well, just seemed appropriate.

Here's my favorite.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. We cannot get behind consciousness." -Max Planck

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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
Larry,

I think you can call someone out without the nastiness, and taking inventory of their prejudices - real or otherwise.

I found the stuff Kathy posted over the last few days to be fairly sad. Not only was it in the presence of Israelis and Jews, many of the posts were specifically intended "for" some of them. She started threads - for example - specifically asking Pianojerome (sorry to single you out) to read links and articles ridiculously slanted against Israel. Did she think he (who is Jewish, has been to Israel, etc.) had never heard or read that crap before?

I honestly had to stop reading articles and links that were posted because they were making me sad, angry, and sick.

I also think the way you argued with her didn't further your point of view very much. Name calling rarely does.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
You were?

How about "liberalism is a mental disease"?

Is that called being sensitive to those around you? Is that called common decency?

I'm sorry, Larry, but it's hard to take this speech seriously when you don't walk the walk yourself.



Well Quirt, does being a liberal define who you are, or is it a viewpoint? If being a liberal defines who you are, welcome to religion.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Moonbat
Jan 12 2009, 03:44 AM
Larry, your behaviour has been disgraceful and many people have told you that, even those who share your political views and whom you claim to respect. You can disagree with someone without calling them an anti-semite (which Kathy is blatantly not), you can disagree with someone without calling them stupid or evil or some other insult. It is possible to disagree - even strongly disagree without throwing out innumerable personal attacks.
That's your opinion, I gave you mine. I think she is antisemitic - you don't. I think she's given more than ample evidence to support such a view.

Here's the reality of it, Moonbat - we both have the capacity to "act disgracefully". This issue just didn't push your button the way it did mine.

Some things need having the sh!t slapped out of it. This issue was one of them. Don't agree? Fine.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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apple
one of the angels
you could change the title to 'I'm NOT sorry' and write the same stuff.

it behooves me to behold
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Apparently you didn't understand my post?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Larry
Jan 12 2009, 06:35 AM
Apparently you didn't understand my post?
Nahh, apple might be right. I mean your post sounded like a lengthened version of "I'm sorry kathy is such a b!tch," which you and I both know isn't an apology at all.

Not that I disagree with you about kathy's posts.

But as for being sensitive to those around you, that's about the most hypocritical thing I've ever heard you say.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Well, apparently you didn't understand my post either. But then, neither of you were on my list of those I thought would, anyway.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Yeah, you're right. I totally don't get it.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Improviso
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HOLY CARP!!!
While several here are castigating Larry for his method of discussing this topic, please be sure to direct some of that venom Kathy's way. She certainly deserves as much a reprimand as Larry.

Her insensitivity toward the jewish members on this forum go beyond the pale. The only difference in behaviour I see is Larry is upfront and in your face about it. Kathy's passive aggressive method during this debate is just as disgusting. I find her discourse no less distressing then if I went over to WTF and started telling Cindy why black society is solely responsible for their current plight and they deserve what they get or don't get. Kathy has shown no sensitivity to a group of members here who I believe have shown extreme restraint in dealing with her.

Quite frankly, I quit reading her $hit days ago.
Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments
and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism.

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
I have shown no disrespect toward Jewish members of the forum. I engaged with PJ because he had initially asked questions and seemed interested in the discussion. I have repeatedly told Bach that I have empathy for him and his family and the rest of Israel for that matter being in the midst of this cauldron. I have repeatedly said that I believe that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself.

My big transgression that some of you find so utterly indefensible is presenting the side of the story from which we in the US have been almost entirely insulated thanks to media bias and the phenomenal influence of AIPAC over politics here - the side of the story that seems to be out in the open and freely discussed in every part of the world - including Israel - but here. In fact, it's so ironic, many of the articles I've posted have been taken directly from Haaretz, and most of them I've posted are from Jews. I find it mind boggling that people could find that offensive. Then, again, I guess it's par for the course. I was treated similarly when I spoke out against the Iraq war. Same idea I guess - speak out against US actions in Iraq and you're a traitor, anti-American and hate your country: Speak out against Israel's actions and you're an anti-Semite.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:40 AM
Speak out against Israel's actions and you're an anti-Semite.
I must say, I have run into that situation on the past. Clearly there SHOULD be a differentiation between being against Jews and being against the political and military philosophies of a sovereign country that is decidedly not our own (for the most part.)

Does being against the policies of Cuba makes one "racist" against brown skinned people? Is one racist against Chinese people if one dislikes the policies of Communist China? Is kathy saying anything negative about Jewish culture or people around the world or in America?

Rightly or wrongly she dislikes the policies of a certain country--and from what I read of what she posted she has confined her comments to the policies of that country and that country's agents.

Inflammatory? of course. But anti-Semitic? That's just ridiculous.
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp
Quote:
 
I have shown no disrespect toward Jewish members of the forum.


Uhhhh....you totally trivialized the actions of the Palestinians with comments to the effect of "it was just a few stone age rockets", and made the Israelis out to be war mongering storm troopers.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
We're not insulated from the viewpoint you're espousing, kathy - far from it. You mistakenly view as a lack of having been exposed to a viewpoint, what is actually just having dismissed the viewpoint as a bunch of crap.

You don't deserve to be personally villified, but your views most certainly do. They're morally repulsive, and they fail under even basic intellectual scrutiny. Simply claiming compassion for innocent residents of Gaza is not suffient cover for what's wrong with your position on this.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Improviso
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:40 AM
I have shown no disrespect toward Jewish members of the forum.
Actually... that's not your call. It's the call of the jewish members on this forum.
Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments
and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism.

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I have shown no disrespect toward Jewish members of the forum.


Actually, yes you have. And Improv is correct - that's not your call in the first place. The Jewish members of the forum have pretty well shown that you did.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
TomK
Jan 12 2009, 07:55 AM
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:40 AM
Speak out against Israel's actions and you're an anti-Semite.
I must say, I have run into that situation on the past. Clearly there SHOULD be a differentiation between being against Jews and being against the political and military philosophies of a sovereign country that is decidedly not our own (for the most part.)

Does being against the policies of Cuba makes one "racist" against brown skinned people? Is one racist against Chinese people if one dislikes the policies of Communist China? Is kathy saying anything negative about Jewish culture or people around the world or in America?

Rightly or wrongly she dislikes the policies of a certain country--and from what I read of what she posted she has confined her comments to the policies of that country and that country's agents.

Inflammatory? of course. But anti-Semitic? That's just ridiculous.
Another great perspective, Tom.

:thumb:


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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:40 AM
I find it mind boggling that people could find that offensive.
The reasonable course might be to take a step back, and consider why so many people here find what you posted to be offensive.

If I were 110% positive that I was right about something, posted it on a forum where the members are pretty much smart, educated, and well read, and the reaction I got varied from disagreement to revulsion, I would not continue to pile on post after post arguing that position. I would try to figure out what it was that offended so many people.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Improviso
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:40 AM
speak out against US actions in Iraq and you're a traitor, anti-American and hate your country: Speak out against Israel's actions and you're an anti-Semite.
Speak out against gay marriage and you're a homophobe. Speak out against the plight of black people and you're a racist.

Yea... labels suck, don't they Kathy?
Identifying narcissists isn't difficult. Just look for the person who is constantly fishing for compliments
and admiration while breaking down over even the slightest bit of criticism.

We have the freedom to choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
it's certainly *not* "ridiculous" to call what has been presented here, "anti-semitic"

If you prefer that a group of people suffer continuous unprovoked attacks, for years, to affording the government and military of that group of people the right, and even obligation, to do whatever it takes to stop those attacks, you have something against the group people for certain. No doubt about it, no matter how many ways you try to crochet the threads of your argument to look like you're making something pretty, it's still an argument that says you think a certain group of people do not have a right to self-defense...which is as good as saying they do not have the right to live. That's "anti" with clarity and certainty, and since this group of people is nearly entirely semitic, we have an exceedingly fair term.

Also, rather than being the insulated ignoramusses (ignorami?) that some like to believe we are, there are, in fact, people in this forum who LIVE right in the steenkin middle of this mess, and others who have real eyes on the ground, whose information they trust. We are a pretty discerning bunch here. I find the "you should read" tactic extremely distasteful, because we do read...and it's clear from what has been said here that we, as a group, read much more broadly than the one telling us to read.

That's it, no more for me on this subject now or in the future. But suffice to say, I've read every word of these idiotic threads and I am only commenting this one time to make it clear to our friends in Israel that I am with them in the only way I can be at this point, in my thoughts and prayers. I wish I had something more concrete to offer. God speed.
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