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the milanese are pissed off
Topic Started: Jan 11 2009, 08:28 PM (943 Views)
Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
bachophile
Jan 12 2009, 11:09 AM
Quote:
 
Italy is a pretty racist country - and I base this statement on my own Italian friends and acquaintances.


:doh: :doh: :doh:

u know, my father was italian. my wife is italian. ive spent more time in italy then in any other country except the us and israel, and it never occured to me that they are racist.

then again...they do think that barolo and brunello di montalcino are much better then french wines...and that may be the cause of the confusion.
methinks kathy should tap out right about now.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Ditto
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Piano*Dad
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John D'Oh
Jan 12 2009, 11:22 AM
jon-nyc
Jan 12 2009, 11:15 AM
bachophile
Jan 12 2009, 11:09 AM
ive spent more time in italy then in any other country except the us and israel, and it never occured to me that they are racist.
Ever been to a football game in Italy?
Hey! - If we're going to start judging a country based on it's football fans then I'm out of here.
As well you should be, you ... you.... hooligan.
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Luke's Dad
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kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 07:31 AM
bachophile
Jan 11 2009, 08:28 PM
Posted Image

italian catholics are not very happy about this in front of the duomo.

the municipality of milan has issued a severe warning againt "muslim provocation".

What's the offense. Praying?

I love Italy and Italians, but as a society, they are pretty unabashedly racist. That's from the perspective of Jews, Muslims and blacks.
I don't have the time or inclination to pull the stories for you, but if you do a little research, you'll find out that this was the 4th-5th such demonstration within a week. Also, they were not authorized to hold a demonstration there, but had instead turned in permits and requests to hold protests elsewhere throughout the city, but then broke off oif the agreed upon march routes and converged on the church illegally and without proper authorization. There is also reports of violence and harassment of ordinary citizens trying to pass through the square.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

I don't have the time or inclination to pull the stories for you, but if you do a little research, you'll find out that this was the 4th-5th such demonstration within a week. Also, they were not authorized to hold a demonstration there, but had instead turned in permits and requests to hold protests elsewhere throughout the city, but then broke off oif the agreed upon march routes and converged on the church illegally and without proper authorization.


That is ridiculously weak. If all they are doing is meeting and peacefully protesting then it's fine isn't it? Surely there is a difference between boycotting shops owned by Jews (which is just the idea of guilt by association and is useless) and getting together and praying in public as a way of peacefully protesting something that is perceived as an injustice.

Quote:
 

There is also reports of violence and harassment of ordinary citizens trying to pass through the square.


That's another matter.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Luke's Dad
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Moonbat
Jan 12 2009, 12:06 PM
Quote:
 

I don't have the time or inclination to pull the stories for you, but if you do a little research, you'll find out that this was the 4th-5th such demonstration within a week. Also, they were not authorized to hold a demonstration there, but had instead turned in permits and requests to hold protests elsewhere throughout the city, but then broke off oif the agreed upon march routes and converged on the church illegally and without proper authorization.


That is ridiculously weak. If all they are doing is meeting and peacefully protesting then it's fine isn't it? Surely there is a difference between boycotting shops owned by Jews (which is just the idea of guilt by association) and getting together and praying in public as a way of peacefully protesting something that is perceived as an injustice.

Quote:
 

There is also reports of violence and harassment of ordinary citizens trying to pass through the square.


That's another matter.
Weak or not, frankly, I don't give a rat's patootie about the protests. However, it's being mischaracterized in the press, is my only point. It's not as if this was a spontaneous protest. It was planned, organized and set up with the civil authorities. Then the just decided to hold it elsewhere. Living near DC, I can appreciate and understand the civics involved with this, and how important it is to do things properly. Every time I'm going downtown, I always check online to find out what protests are going on, what streets are shut down, etc... Imagine how ticked you would be, trying to get to work, changing your route because of the protests planned on Main St, only to get hemmed in by the protest and stuck two miles away. I'd be pretty ticked.

Even the protestors admit they went too far in angering the locals. Otherwise, why apologize?
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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kathyk
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bachophile
Jan 12 2009, 11:09 AM
Quote:
 
Italy is a pretty racist country - and I base this statement on my own Italian friends and acquaintances.


:doh: :doh: :doh:

u know, my father was italian. my wife is italian. ive spent more time in italy then in any other country except the us and israel, and it never occured to me that they are racist.

then again...they do think that barolo and brunello di montalcino are much better then french wines...and that may be the cause of the confusion.
Did I say your wife or your father are racist? I'm talking about tendencies. Talk to any black person who has ever lived in Italy. Talk to anyone of Arabic descent. My Jewish former law claims she sensed anti-semtism (I think that was largely based on graffiti) the couple times she was in Italy. As I said, I love Italy. But, like it or not, it is a very ethno-centric country. Have you read Oriana Fallaci's The Rage and the Fury? It was forwarded to me by a very dear Italian friend shortly after 9-11. It's a powerful piece, but the racist overtones made me cringe.

So, are we resorting to personal attacks now, Bach?

Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Aqua Letifer
Jan 12 2009, 11:29 AM
bachophile
Jan 12 2009, 11:09 AM
Quote:
 
Italy is a pretty racist country - and I base this statement on my own Italian friends and acquaintances.


:doh: :doh: :doh:

u know, my father was italian. my wife is italian. ive spent more time in italy then in any other country except the us and israel, and it never occured to me that they are racist.

then again...they do think that barolo and brunello di montalcino are much better then french wines...and that may be the cause of the confusion.
methinks kathy should tap out right about now.
Uh oh, here come the TNCR morality police.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 12:24 PM
So, are we resorting to personal attacks now, Bach?

:confused: When did he do that?
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
what r u talking about? whom am i attacking personally? and it never occured to me that anyone thought my father or wife or third cousin was racist. i was simply saying that because of family connections, i have spent over the years a good deal of time in italy, and i have a good feel for the place.

and ive never felt it to be racist. ive felt hostility from french, but never from italians. some chianti, some pasta, some opera, and everyone is happy.

what exactly did u mean by personal attacks? not quite sure i understand.
anybody?



"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 12:27 PM
Uh oh, here come the TNCR morality police.
........

Okay first of all, to place me in any kind of "morality police" context is pretty hilarious.

Second, you can continue posting about this issue of course but I don't think it's to your credit to do so. That's what my comment meant. (Then again, I never do that myself so what do I know.)
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
bachophile
Jan 12 2009, 12:36 PM
what r u talking about? whom am i attacking personally? and it never occured to me that anyone thought my father or wife or third cousin was racist. i was simply saying that because of family connections, i have spent over the years a good deal of time in italy, and i have a good feel for the place.

and ive never felt it to be racist. ive felt hostility from french, but never from italians. some chianti, some pasta, some opera, and everyone is happy.

what exactly did u mean by personal attacks? not quite sure i understand.
anybody?



I didn't see any personal attacks by you.

I saw a tragic misunderstanding of what constitutes a good bottle of wine, but nothing more than that.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Jan 12 2009, 12:06 PM
Quote:
 

I don't have the time or inclination to pull the stories for you, but if you do a little research, you'll find out that this was the 4th-5th such demonstration within a week. Also, they were not authorized to hold a demonstration there, but had instead turned in permits and requests to hold protests elsewhere throughout the city, but then broke off oif the agreed upon march routes and converged on the church illegally and without proper authorization.


That is ridiculously weak. If all they are doing is meeting and peacefully protesting then it's fine isn't it?
Nothing wrong with "meeting and peacefully protesting"... but they're protesting against the wrong entity.
They are p!ssed off at Israel, and they're protesting against a Catholic church??? What's up with that??? :confused:
May be some one should put the word "FAIL" in big, red letters one that picture and post it on the Fail Blog.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

Nothing wrong with "meeting and peacefully protesting"... but they're protesting against the wrong entity.
They are p!ssed off at Israel, and they're protesting against a Catholic church??? What's up with that??? :confused:
May be some one should put the word "FAIL" in big, red letters one that picture and post it on the Fail Blog.


I'm also baffled as to why they are protesting against a Catholic church - perhaps they are protesting the Italian governments muted response to the conflict and the Catholic church just happened to be a nearby focal point?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Luke's Dad
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Or maybe, just maybe, there's a fairly xenophobic tendency throughout the culture, and they don't see much of a difference between Christianity and Judaism?
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I suspect the choice of location was both a civic and a religious message. In Italy, the piazzas are the centers of civic life, which are historically in front of the main churches. In some sense the Duomo is just a backdrop, though the message of several thousand muslims praying at the heart of an Italian city's religious center (actually over the ancient baptistery where Augustine was baptized by Ambrose) no doubt sends a very deliberate signal about their intent to dominate. Symbolically this is more a message of menace, than of prayer.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kathyk
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bachophile
Jan 12 2009, 12:36 PM
what r u talking about? whom am i attacking personally? and it never occured to me that anyone thought my father or wife or third cousin was racist. i was simply saying that because of family connections, i have spent over the years a good deal of time in italy, and i have a good feel for the place.

and ive never felt it to be racist. ive felt hostility from french, but never from italians. some chianti, some pasta, some opera, and everyone is happy.

what exactly did u mean by personal attacks? not quite sure i understand.
anybody?



Certainly belittling. Seems personal to me. Three emoticon guys beating their heads. Your earlier comment - "Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant" oh, and my personal favorite, "she knows not what she is doing". Certainly nothing compared to certain posters here, but coming from someone I consider a friend, kind of biting. Whatever, bygones. I know this is trying for you.

Again, my comments on Italy are based on my personal experience and stories from others who have been there. I had an Italian boyfriend the two years I lived in Europe and spent a lot of time there. The same could be said, however, about Germany. The Guest Workers (who were mainly North African Mulsims) there were treated like carp and were favorite targets of violence by skinheads. They are still very insular, ethnocentric countries in many respects.

My very good Italian friend that I mentioned is a doctor and a wonderful human being, but ,he himself (aside from worshpiping Oriana Fallaci) has expressed sentiments toward Arabs that I found completely repulsive. I don't think he's that out of the ordinary in that regard. And I know for a fact that many African Americans feel very discriminated against in Italy.

I also found my Jewish partner's trepidations interesting. Have you seen a lot of anti-semitic grafitti in Italy? I think it was Rome where she made the observation. I personally didn't see any when I was there a year ago April, but then, I don't have radar for it that she does and maybe she was just having the eerie vibes that a lot of Jewish people probably have when they first travel in the land of the Holocaust.

Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 03:57 PM
Certainly belittling. Seems personal to me. Three emoticon guys beating their heads. Your earlier comment - "Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant" oh, and my personal favorite, "she knows not what she is doing"

kathy, bach lives there. You do not. Further, you make a blanket statements about racist Italians when his family is Italian. If you ask me he's handling the ridiculousness very well.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Jan 12 2009, 11:09 AM
Quote:
 
Italy is a pretty racist country - and I base this statement on my own Italian friends and acquaintances.


:doh: :doh: :doh:

u know, my father was italian. my wife is italian. ive spent more time in italy then in any other country except the us and israel, and it never occured to me that they are racist.

then again...they do think that barolo and brunello di montalcino are much better then french wines...and that may be the cause of the confusion.
I agree.

I spend a month every summer there and I don't see the Italian people giving a damn who anyone is--on the other hand my neighbors there are British and I once got a "severe dressing down" for once refering to myself in a restaurant as an "Honourable". (Just kidding around.)

Turns out such things are NOT a joking matter and they were NOT amused.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 
ertainly belittling. Seems personal to me. Three emoticon guys beating their heads. Your earlier comment - "Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant" oh, and my personal favorite, "she knows not what she is doing"


I don't think he's being personally insulting, he's just showing his frustration and in a fairly mild manner. In general I think Bach has been very reasonable in all these Israel/Palestine threads particularly considering that he is someone who due to his proximity to the conflict one might otherwise have expected strong bias/unreasonableness from.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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kathyk
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Aqua Letifer
Jan 12 2009, 04:00 PM
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 03:57 PM
Certainly belittling. Seems personal to me. Three emoticon guys beating their heads. Your earlier comment - "Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant" oh, and my personal favorite, "she knows not what she is doing"

kathy, bach lives there. You do not. Further, you make a blanket statements about racist Italians when his family is Italian. If you ask me he's handling the ridiculousness very well.
Yes, and I live in the US which government and vestiges of racism I have very vocally criticized. I also spent a pretty huge amount of time in Italy and noted that I am very fond of the country. I also became quite accustomed to people criticizing my government and president when I lived in Germany. So, what?! Geezum criminy. Funny how PC TNCR has suddenly become.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Moonbat
Jan 12 2009, 04:07 PM
Quote:
 
ertainly belittling. Seems personal to me. Three emoticon guys beating their heads. Your earlier comment - "Ignorant, ignorant, ignorant" oh, and my personal favorite, "she knows not what she is doing"


I don't think he's being personally insulting, he's just showing his frustration and in a fairly mild manner. In general I think Bach has been very reasonable in all these Israel/Palestine threads particularly considering that he is someone who due to his proximity to the conflict one might otherwise have expected strong bias/unreasonableness from.
I do understand that. I've expressed that repeatedly in fact. Again, bygones. Bach is a mensch.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 04:10 PM
Funny how PC TNCR has suddenly become.
Being PC is NEVER good. :sad:
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kathyk
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And now some true words of wisdom:

During these serious times, people of all faiths should remember these four religious truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.

2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.

4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters.

(Got that today from my winger brother with whom I constantly argue these things. See, even dueling siblings can maintain some levity)



Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 12 2009, 04:17 PM
3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.





And for that you Lutherans will all BURN IN HELL!!!!! :silly: :D
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