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| Vatican deplores Gaza situation; likens Gaza to concentration camp | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 7 2009, 06:06 PM (813 Views) | |
| bachophile | Jan 9 2009, 09:41 PM Post #26 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1008866.html also posted in the other thread.... sigh. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Larry | Jan 10 2009, 10:09 AM Post #27 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Dewey is correct that "palestine" has borders besides the one with Israel, and Israel has no control over those borders. This simple fact renders the argument that it is a "concentration camp" invalid. The only question is why they don't leave via their other options out. The answer: The other arab countries don't want them. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 10 2009, 04:13 PM Post #28 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Geez -- would you guys get so up in arms if he had compared Pol Pot's Cambodia to the conditions of a concentration camp? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Dewey | Jan 10 2009, 05:12 PM Post #29 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'm not up in arms. I just said, even while giving him credit for loathing the obviously terrible situation, that the man's comparison was mistaken. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jeff | Jan 10 2009, 07:04 PM Post #30 |
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Senior Carp
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Serious question: North Korea *is* a concentration camp. How often does a Cardinal comment on this situation to the world media? |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 10 2009, 07:16 PM Post #31 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Serious answer: I think the Vatican's position on North Korea is well established. Is there something particular brewing in North Korea, or a deterioration in conditions there, such that the Cardinal should comment? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Jan 10 2009, 07:50 PM Post #32 |
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Senior Carp
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IT - Ok. The Vatican spokesman tried to drop it. I don't mind the phrase concentration camp being used when it is appropriate, as it is clearly not in the present case. |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 10 2009, 07:57 PM Post #33 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Well, like I said, I'm not on the ground in Gaza, so I have no idea how good or bad conditions are. My point is the absurd jump by journalists to impute Nazi concentration camps to him, and the bozos at Weisenthal associating him as a Holocaust denier. e.g., this piece of crap journalism There have been many atrocities committed against many people, and I don't grant the Jews copyright protection for the language of suffering. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Jan 10 2009, 08:14 PM Post #34 |
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Senior Carp
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IT: Thanks for the link. Some good points made, and I'm glad the Vatican spokesman chose to back off the erroneous remarks. VATICAN CITY, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Relations between the Vatican and Israel grew tense on Thursday when the Jewish state condemned an aide to Pope Benedict for calling Gaza "a big concentration camp". Israel criticised Cardinal Renato Martino as the pope delivered a speech to diplomats in which he spoke out against the use of violence by both Israel and Hamas Islamists in Gaza. On Wednesday, Martino, president of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, delivered the Vatican's toughest criticism of Israel since its offensive in the Palestinian-ruled enclave, calling Gaza a "big concentration camp". "We are astounded to hear from a spiritual dignitary words that are so far removed from truth and dignity," Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor told Reuters. "The vocabulary of Hamas propaganda, coming from a member of the College of Cardinals, is a shocking and disappointing phenomenon," he said. Jewish leaders around the world also condemned Martino. "His comments are offensive and an insult to the memory of the Holocaust and survivors worldwide," said Elan Steinberg, vice president of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants. "He is either trying to nefariously disseminate anti-Israeli propaganda or he doesn't have the faintest clue about the murderous conditions inside a concentration camp," Stephan Kramer, general secretary of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, told Handelsblatt newspaper. "These remarks are untrue, distort the memory of the Holocaust and are only used against Israel by terrorist organisations and Holocaust deniers," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 10 2009, 08:20 PM Post #35 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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What erroneous remarks? It is either illiterate or intentionally misleading to suggest Martino called Gaza a big concentration camp. He was talking about the conditions. And he never mentioned any connection to the nazi death camps. Go back and read his words and get back to me about erroneous remarks. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| kathyk | Jan 11 2009, 07:04 AM Post #36 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Well, there certainly is a discrepancy in the chain of events. This from the NY TImes I tend to believe this version over the article you posted. This was a huge ongoing mess that had a lot of coverage here, particularly among peace groups. And this paragraph from your article is also noteworthy: Gisha, an Israeli organization aimed at protecting Palestinian freedom of movement, says the problems the Palestinian students faced are not out of the ordinary. "In addition to the particular students who did not receive visas for technical reasons or unexplained security reasons, there are hundreds of students in the Gaza Strip who were accepted by universities abroad and have valid visas," said Gisha executive director Sari Bashi. But, she added, "Israel issues a comprehensive ban on students from Gaza going abroad, as part of its policy of collective punishment toward Gaza residents, thereby impinging on the right to education of hundreds of talented young people who want to study, develop and create a better future in our region." Jeff, if connections with Hamas was the criteria for refusing exit visas, virtually every student in Gaza would be denied since Hamas is so entrenched in all of the institutions in Gaza, including the universities. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Jeff | Jan 11 2009, 07:16 AM Post #37 |
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Senior Carp
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Yes, the (likely deliberate) mis-information among the mis-named "peace" groups (since they are Hamas defenders they should properly be called war groups, since Hamas's only goal is the genocidal destruction of all Jews in Israel, as they repeatedly say in all Arab media they can), is a main problem. I know they circulate lies like this all the time as fact to get their followers all worked up into a lather. It is the "peace" groups standard modus operandi. Don't believe every scandal sheet the mis-named "peace" groups put out. They generally act as Hamas press agents. This is true not only about the visas, but about Jenin, civilian casualties, and just about every thing else. They have almost no credibility whatsoever. |
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| Jeff | Jan 11 2009, 07:19 AM Post #38 |
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Senior Carp
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So you now acknowledge that the denial of the visas was correct and valid, and in accordance with US and Israeli law. |
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| kathyk | Jan 11 2009, 10:01 AM Post #39 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I most certainly don't. (I had to run off to go to church to play the organ, so I wasn't able to fully respond). I have to ask you this. Since we agree (I think) that virtually every institution in Gaza is currently under Gazan control, do you think Israel's justification in denying those student exit was the right thing to do? And if you answer yes, please elaborate. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Jan 11 2009, 10:24 AM Post #40 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Because I was rushing off, I read the Haaretz article very quickly and didn't get the facts straight (I do have to say, however, that that title is extremely misleading and seems to have been crafted to deflect blame from Israel). So, it seems that after the intervention of Condi (kudos to her) and several human rights group (a friend of mine is involved with one of them - you know, another one of those self loathing Jews), exits for the seven students were finally approved by Israel. Mind you, this took a couple of months, and intense pressure, after the scholarships had been revoked for lack of permission from Israel. Then, came the next debacle which was at the hands of the US when they decided that 3 of the 7 were a security risk. No reasons were given. Not surprisingly, all 3 turned back were men, and 3 of the 4 that were allowed were women. This seems to jibe with what seems to be two policies. One is that all the men killed in Gaza are considered militants and not counted among civilian casualties. The other is based on the narrative from people from the Lutheran Church in Ramallah and from other human rights organizations that says that virtually every boy will have been arrested by Israeli forces by the time he is 17, many times for the most trivial of matters. So, could it be that the US didn't like the bogus criminal records of these 3 guys? We'll probably never know. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Jeff | Jan 11 2009, 02:11 PM Post #41 |
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Senior Carp
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Yes, of course. It is also the reason Israel's current military actions are justified and long overdue. Hamas is on the US terrorist watch list for a reason. |
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| Jeff | Jan 11 2009, 02:12 PM Post #42 |
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Senior Carp
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I missed the part where the records were "bogus". You are now admitting they were connected with Hamas. |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 11 2009, 02:22 PM Post #43 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You wanna run that by us again? I suspect you are associated with the Young Republicans on the same terms. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Jan 11 2009, 02:36 PM Post #44 |
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Senior Carp
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IT - Are the Young Republicans a terrorist group according to the US State Department which determines rules for entry into our country? |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 11 2009, 02:38 PM Post #45 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No. What does that have to do with the grounds on which you are claiming association? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Jan 11 2009, 02:55 PM Post #46 |
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Senior Carp
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Well, because belonging to Young Hamas seems like an excellent reason to deny entry to our country, in order to protect the safety of our citizens from terrorism. |
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| kathyk | Jan 11 2009, 03:06 PM Post #47 |
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Pisa-Carp
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In any event, it's hard to not be affiliated with Hamas when Hamas runs virtually every institution in the area. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| ivorythumper | Jan 11 2009, 03:10 PM Post #48 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I have no problem if the State Dept wants to deny visas to Palestinians per se, or the French for that matter. But the ruse of declaring them Hamas is just bad policy. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jeff | Jan 11 2009, 03:22 PM Post #49 |
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Senior Carp
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All the more reason why Israel's decision was correct. |
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| kathyk | Jan 11 2009, 04:34 PM Post #50 |
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Pisa-Carp
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So, let's push them even further back into the Stone age. Let the children suffer from malnutrition, deprive them of good education, and particularly of western, secular education. That's bound to alleviate the situation and to get them to embrace Israel (who's depriving them) rather than Hamas (who's providing for them). |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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4:36 PM Jul 10