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Vatican deplores Gaza situation; likens Gaza to concentration camp
Topic Started: Jan 7 2009, 06:06 PM (812 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm
 

Vatican deplores Gaza situation

The Pope's justice minister, Cardinal Renato Martino, has sharply criticised Israel's actions and likened the Gaza Strip to a "big concentration camp".


Correspondents say his words mark the Vatican's toughest comments since Israel began its offensive with intensive air attacks 12 days ago.

He accused both sides of only thinking of their own interests while innocent people paid the price.

Pope Benedict XVI has already called for an end to the conflict.

Cardinal Martino, president of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, made the comment to Italian online site Il Sussidiario.

"Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay," he said.

"Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp."

Call for intervention

Israel says it wants to stop rocket attacks on southern Israel and to stop Hamas smuggling weapons into Gaza via Egypt, while Hamas says any ceasefire deal must include an end to Israel's blockade of Gaza.

Cardinal Martino urged both sides to hold peace talks.

"If they can't come to an agreement, then someone else should do it [for them]," he said.

"The world cannot sit back and watch without doing anything."

He added: "We Christians are not the only ones to call this land 'holy', Jews and Muslims do so too.

"The fact that this land is the scene of bloodshed seems a great tragedy."

There was a brief lull in hostilities on Wednesday when Israel halted military operations in Gaza for three hours to create "humanitarian corridors" for supplies and fuel.

It followed the deadliest day of the operation - more than 130 Palestinians were killed on Tuesday, medics said.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm

Published: 2009/01/07 23:02:49 GMT

© BBC MMIX
So, uhm, any Catholic disagree with the Vatican here? Why? :shrug:
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
I have been loathe to use Holocaust terms in expressing my disgust at this latest round of events, but the analogies are becoming more and more apt. Concentration camp probably goes too far, but the one that truly is fitting is the Warsaw Ghetto. What a tragic irony.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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George K
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Finally
kathyk
Jan 7 2009, 07:21 PM
the one that truly is fitting is the Warsaw Ghetto. What a tragic irony.
Are the Palestinians prohibited from leaving Gaza? Are they required to wear armbands?
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MIke Godwin
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:tsktsk:

Watch it there...

I'm paying attention.
Now behave, it's the law, you know.
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Axtremus
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George K
Jan 7 2009, 08:07 PM
kathyk
Jan 7 2009, 07:21 PM
the one that truly is fitting is the Warsaw Ghetto. What a tragic irony.
Are the Palestinians prohibited from leaving Gaza? Are they required to wear armbands?
Yes, the Palestinians (in Gaza) are prohibited from leaving Gaza.
No, they are not required to wear armbands.
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George K
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Finally
Axtremus
Jan 7 2009, 10:51 PM
Yes, the Palestinians (in Gaza) are prohibited from leaving Gaza.
You mean they're locked in? They can't go to Syria, Lebanon, or any other country? Or do you mean that their access to Israel is restricted?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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kathyk
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George K
Jan 7 2009, 08:07 PM
kathyk
Jan 7 2009, 07:21 PM
the one that truly is fitting is the Warsaw Ghetto. What a tragic irony.
Are the Palestinians prohibited from leaving Gaza? Are they required to wear armbands?
Yes, that is precisely the case. They are prohibited from leaving Gaza. They are virtual prisoners in that desolate strip. They only leave with the permission of Israel. Didn't you follow the debacle about the Palestinian Fulbright scholars who were denied exit visas and lost their scholarships? http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/29/africa/gaza.php This is the stuff that the MSM in the US chooses to brush aside.

And they don't need to wear arm bands because you can bet that there's not a single Israeli living in Gaza; there's no confusion about who's who.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Frank_W
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Let me pause to shed a tear for the poor poor Palestinians who have twice elected terrorists to lead them.

Oh boo hoo hoo.... Nawwww... F-dat... They are reaping what they have sown. End of story.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

Let me pause to shed a tear for the poor poor Palestinians who have twice elected terrorists to lead them.

Oh boo hoo hoo.... Nawwww... F-dat... They are reaping what they have sown. End of story.


The kids too? And what about the ones who didn't vote for Hamas? And even those that did - the people who voted for Hamas hoping for a less corrupt regime, perhaps they are "reaping what they have sown". But does that preclude compassion?

Be generous with your tears Frank, doing so will protect your humanity.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Frank_W
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I have said from the start that I feel badly for civilians caught in the crossfire. Especially the children. How much regard have Hamas terrorists shown for Israeli civilians? 80 rockets on Christmas day alone! That just blows my mind...

Even in the middle of a full-scale ground operation, the ISDF has opened a corridor for humanitarian aid and supplies to flow in. I doubt Hamas would afford Israel the same, were the shoe on the other foot.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Axtremus
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Hmmm... no comment on the Vatican's position on this? :shrug:
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Dewey
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Israel has no control over the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt.

The people of the Gaza Strip elect Hamas, a terrorist organization, to be its official government. Hamas, and much of the rest of the world, want to make a polite distinction between the "political arm" of Hamas, and its "military arm." It's debatable that such a distinction was ever justifiable, but it certainly isn't the case now that Hamas is the official government - the claims that the civil arm has no control over what the military arm does is blatantly, obviously false. If Hamas wants to function as an official state government, they must shoulder the responsibility that comes with it. Now that they are a "legitimate" government, claims of not being responsible for the military wing is as acceptable as if the U.S. marines decided unilaterally to invade Mexico, and the President simply shrugged his shoulders and said, "hey, that's those guys over in the Pentagon; I can't do anything about them."

The situation in Gaza is a nightmare. It's a human tragedy. But the tragedy is, by far for the most part, the making of the residents of Gaza themselves, who have bought into the Jew-hating rhetoric of Hamas, and who are raising their children to continue the hate. The tragedy is that the residents of Gaza elected a terrorist organization to make official policy for them - and the policy that they've adopted is to pick a fight with their neighbor, and to largely fight it using the citizenry as human shields, and using schools, hospitals, apartment buildings and the like as locations for for military operations. A secondary tragedy is the one where the world doesn't consider it legitimate for Israel to defend itself in any manner that has a chance of working. If there were ever any misperceptions that a war fought under terms of "proportional response," it should have been proven as a failed way to fight a war by 1865, or at least 1974.

The Vatican position is not surprising. But it is mistaken.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

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ivorythumper
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Moonbat
Jan 8 2009, 06:31 AM
Be generous with your tears Frank, doing so will protect your humanity.
When did you start being so reasonable? :thumb:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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"The Vatican sought to downplay the cardinal’s remarks. The Vatican spokesman, Rev. Federico Lombardi, called Cardinal Martino’s choice of words “inopportune,” and said they created “irritation and confusion” more than illumination.

While calling the cardinal “an authoritative person,” Rev. Lombardi added that “The more authoritative voice and line would be that of the pope.”

"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jan 9 2009, 08:28 AM

The Vatican position is not surprising. But it is mistaken.
What phrases do you find mistaken, or is the whole point that it is unjust that innocents should suffer due to power politics?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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bachophile
Jan 9 2009, 12:54 PM
"The Vatican sought to downplay the cardinal’s remarks. The Vatican spokesman, Rev. Federico Lombardi, called Cardinal Martino’s choice of words “inopportune,” and said they created “irritation and confusion” more than illumination.

While calling the cardinal “an authoritative person,” Rev. Lombardi added that “The more authoritative voice and line would be that of the pope.”

That is actually a pretty meaningless statement. The pope is certainly authoritative in matters of faith and morals, and as the head of the Vatican state in international relationships. But there is nothing that I see in Card. Martino's statement that is substantially problematic. In fact the ope later said of the situation "the military option is not a solution and violence from whichever side must be firmly condemned".

it is also interesting how the press so quickly distorts words.
Papal response: Vatican compares Gaza to Nazi camp

What unbridled bullsh!t. Nowhere did Martino speak of Nazi concentration camps. Why not the concentration camps instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902? Why not the US Concentration Camps forced on Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s? Why not the concentration camps from the Malayan Emergency?

The answer to that is quite obvious.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Moonbat
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ivorythumper
Jan 9 2009, 09:59 AM
Moonbat
Jan 8 2009, 06:31 AM
Be generous with your tears Frank, doing so will protect your humanity.
When did you start being so reasonable? :thumb:
Hey, I've always been the bleeding heart type.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Dewey
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ivorythumper
Jan 9 2009, 01:22 PM
Dewey
Jan 9 2009, 08:28 AM

The Vatican position is not surprising. But it is mistaken.
What phrases do you find mistaken, or is the whole point that it is unjust that innocents should suffer due to power politics?
It's the fact that the Vatican properly concerns itself with the suffering of innocents that causes me to say the statement is not surprising. Obviously, innocents in Gaza are suffering.

It's the fact that the comparison of Gaza to concentration camps is grossly inaccurate that causes me to say the statement is mistaken.

The legitimate concern that the RCC and others have to end or minimize unjust suffering can easily, and often does, cause anyone's internal lens to distort the situation. The concern can often permit a person to confuse the secondary effects of an injustice its actual root cause. That's what I think is the case here.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Moonbat
Jan 9 2009, 02:12 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 9 2009, 09:59 AM
Moonbat
Jan 8 2009, 06:31 AM
Be generous with your tears Frank, doing so will protect your humanity.
When did you start being so reasonable? :thumb:
Hey, I've always been the bleeding heart type.
I thought it was a new module in the Moonbat Biomachine. :nerd:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jan 9 2009, 02:13 PM
ivorythumper
Jan 9 2009, 01:22 PM
Dewey
Jan 9 2009, 08:28 AM

The Vatican position is not surprising. But it is mistaken.
What phrases do you find mistaken, or is the whole point that it is unjust that innocents should suffer due to power politics?
It's the fact that the Vatican properly concerns itself with the suffering of innocents that causes me to say the statement is not surprising. Obviously, innocents in Gaza are suffering.

It's the fact that the comparison of Gaza to concentration camps is grossly inaccurate that causes me to say the statement is mistaken.

The legitimate concern that the RCC and others have to end or minimize unjust suffering can easily, and often does, cause anyone's internal lens to distort the situation. The concern can often permit a person to confuse the secondary effects of an injustice its actual root cause. That's what I think is the case here.
Not being on the ground, I have no idea if the comparisons are accurate. He is explicitly talking about the conditions. Do you know this to be false?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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By definition of the current situation, yes. No concentration camp ever shared a border with a nation state sympathetic to its occupants, who could open the gate for refugees to flee, or to provide humanitarian aid any time they wanted to. No concentration camp occupants claimed their birthright to live within its boundaries, and lobbed missiles into the homes of those surrounding them, while decrying the suffering caused to its own innocents when the neighbors respond with force. No concentration camp occupants, when they were able to enact some resistance against their opponents, used the institutions and very lives of innocent people to shield their military operations. No concentration camp has ever had a delegate to the UN.

Israel has been far from perfect in dealings with the residents of Gaza. But to compare the situation of the Gazans to that of the residents of a concentration camp is way too far a stretch.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jan 9 2009, 02:26 PM
By definition of the current situation, yes. No concentration camp ever shared a border with a nation state sympathetic to its occupants, who could open the gate for refugees to flee, or to provide humanitarian aid any time they wanted to. No concentration camp occupants claimed their birthright to live within its boundaries, and lobbed missiles into the homes of those surrounding them, while decrying the suffering caused to its own innocents when the neighbors respond with force. No concentration camp occupants, when they were able to enact some resistance against their opponents, used the institutions and very lives of innocent people to shield their military operations. No concentration camp has ever had a delegate to the UN.

Israel has been far from perfect in dealings with the residents of Gaza. But to compare the situation of the Gazans to that of the residents of a concentration camp is way too far a stretch.
You are missing the obvious point of reference, Dewey. Martino explicitly said "Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp."

You can't legitimately argue any comparison beyond the conditions. You also can't avoid dealing with the phrase "more and more" and "resembles".
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
OK. You think Gaza is comparable to a concentration camp. I don't.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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bachophile
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its just a godwin, and i think the vatican spokeman i quoted recognized it as that. but u cant have Rev. Federico Lombardi screaming godwin, (off course God wins) so he says softly "inopportune". so he wont be misunderstood.

"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Jeff
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kathyk
Jan 8 2009, 05:50 AM
Didn't you follow the debacle about the Palestinian Fulbright scholars who were denied exit visas and lost their scholarships?
Given their links with Hamas, the denials were legitimate.
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