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| being pro life outside the political arena | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,741 Views) | |
| AlbertaCrude | Nov 14 2008, 08:18 PM Post #201 |
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Bull-Carp
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Providing no zygote or bastocyst gets left behind, I see no reason the pro-lifers couldn't get behind it. |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 08:25 PM Post #202 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I am not morally adverse to IVF, though I realize I am off the rez on that. As you note, provided no one gets left behind... and I think that is a significant moral issue. if you're going to make a baby, whether naturally or in a dish, I think you have a moral responsibility to give the lil' feller a chance a grow and a responsibility to raise him. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 08:27 PM Post #203 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Nothing ironic about it. The problem is that often many more eggs are fertilized and then discarded. Morally that is problematic. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 14 2008, 08:32 PM Post #204 |
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Bull-Carp
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I disagree. You only have the moral responsibility to grow and raise the lil' feller if mama gets pregnant. Unless you accept that some may not make it out of the petri dish before implantation, don't embark down that road in the first place. At the same time if you cannot accept that reality, don't petition to have another person's right to take that path to parenthood revoked either. |
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| Axtremus | Nov 14 2008, 08:46 PM Post #205 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Dude, think China - it shouldn't be too hard to find little boys there who would not have been born had their parents not aborted (or abandoned) their big sisters. To go around your mental block, replace "abortion" with "miscarriage." It's not uncommon that a man has vasectomy or a woman has tubaligation after they have given birth to some pre-determined number of children. If a couple is determined to have three children, they will keep trying until they have three children (or until their biological clocks run out or decide to adopt). If, after child #1 and child #2, pregnancy #3 ends up miscarried, then pregnancy #4 ends up producing child #3. Child #3 is the child that would not have come to be had pregnancy #3 not miscarried. Now replace "miscarriage" with "abortion": It's not uncommon that a man has vasectomy or a woman has tubaligation after they have given birth to some pre-determined number of children. If a couple is determined to have three children, they will keep trying until they have three children (or until their biological clocks run out or decide to adopt). If, after child #1 and child #2, pregnancy #3 is aborted, then pregnancy #4 ends up producing child #3. Child #3 is the child that would not have come to be had pregnancy #3 not been aborted. |
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| Axtremus | Nov 14 2008, 08:51 PM Post #206 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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What does Mr. Jolly Sr. think about sperm banks' sperm donors? |
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| CTPianotech | Nov 14 2008, 08:52 PM Post #207 |
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Fulla-Carp
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What are you saying Pro-life groups should be doing that they aren't doing? Does 'work constructively' mean that we must no longer hold the value, or simply no longer tell anyone about it? |
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| Axtremus | Nov 14 2008, 08:54 PM Post #208 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Compromise. Like I said in my first post in this thread:
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| CTPianotech | Nov 14 2008, 08:57 PM Post #209 |
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Fulla-Carp
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OK... how does that lead to fewer abortions overall? |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 09:01 PM Post #210 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Why not implant the human beings that are produced outside the womb? I see no valid grounds for saying that location determines morality. That is the same argument that a baby 10 seconds before birth can be killed with impunity, but 10 seconds after birth it is homicide. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 09:03 PM Post #211 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No one has to accept anything just because you or anyone else says so. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | Nov 14 2008, 09:13 PM Post #212 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Instead of spending resources fighting for a principle, the pro-life groups can spend resources working to get results. Don't get hung up on "absolute principle," focus on results. Spending $$$ lobbying and suing to outlaw abortions won't necessarily reduce the number of abortions for the simple reason that "outlawing abortion" is not the same as "reducing abortion" -- there's always the "coat hanger in the back alley" option and the "abort overseas" option. But spending the same $$$ to reduce abortion, well, that's a direct application of resources towards the goal of reducing abortions. |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 14 2008, 09:19 PM Post #213 |
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Bull-Carp
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I was discussing zygotes within 48 to 72 hours of fertilization/conception not third trimester fetuses. Some women produce a lot of eggs, others do not. Men produce sperm of varying quality and amounts. What is produced for IVF is clincally selected. As such, some fertilized eggs are implanted and others are not. Criteria for implantation selection is clinical not moral. I see no problem provided all parties to the procedure understand the implications and accept consequences. It's really only a matter between the partcipating would-be parents and the presiding physician(s) and clinicians. |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 09:28 PM Post #214 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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As far as I can tell the pro-life efforts today are mostly educational, supportive, adoptive, and consciousness raising. It goes without saying that legislation and judicial appointment are part of the overall strategy (which does involve lobbying), but ultimately it is a matter of a battle for the hearts and minds, and giving women solid options to abortion such as safe harbor laws (which the radical proborts still despise) and adoption. Where do you think they should money be spent to reduce abortions other than what they are doing now? (In fact, according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute under the Bush administration abortion has drop quite a bit back to early to mid 70s figures - still 1.3 million a year is a blood bath). |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 09:31 PM Post #215 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That would make sense if it didn't involve another human being. There wouldn't be a moral question if it didn't involve another human being. Eggs don't have to be fertilized after harvesting. But once they are, there is another human being involved. Calling something "clinical" does not automatically remove ethical or moral import. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 14 2008, 09:59 PM Post #216 |
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Bull-Carp
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I never said it does remove the moral or ethical import. The ethical and moral implications are dealt prior to a couple's decision whether to go ahead with IVF or not. From there on it is clinical and no one's business other than the presiding physician and the would be parents. From what I can see the pro-life movement is pretty much together on the issue of elective abortion (albeit with some notable exceptions in the case of rape and incest- with which I happen to agree with). I however do not see the same consensus or unequivocal condemnation in that same interest group over the practice of IVF. Perhaps this is one instance when utility trumps natural law. |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 10:18 PM Post #217 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I have no idea what you mean by any of that first paragraph. Either the action X is moral or it is not. It makes no sense to say the moral and ethical implications are dealt with prior to X and once X is determined as the course of action that it no longer has moral implications. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 14 2008, 10:38 PM Post #218 |
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Bull-Carp
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You know very well what I am saying. In this country at least, people do not undertake the IVF procedure without extensive prior medical and psychological consultation and assessment during which all these ethical and moral issues are discussed. I assume it is the same in the USA. Face it IT, we are at two opposite ends of the gridiron on this issue. I will not compromise with you and I don't expect you to compromise with me. |
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| bachophile | Nov 14 2008, 11:32 PM Post #219 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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ive stayed out of this...most know my thinking on this...but no i have no desire to get involved. but its weird, i live in a country where the following issues have been reasons that governments almost or did fall... religious opposition to daylight savings time... the kosherness of white house dinners.. the time that F-16's delivered from america landed after sundown on a friday...etc...u get the point. but never, never has abortion been a red button issue here...because here we have precisely that formula of...grey as opposed to black and white. but i will not, absoloutely not, join the discussion here. been there, did that. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 11:37 PM Post #220 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I had no idea that was how you did it. I think here anyone with $10K can do it. It still doesn't address why every egg has to be fertilized and not only eggs to be implanted are fertilized. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 14 2008, 11:51 PM Post #221 |
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Bull-Carp
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No, here you have to go through an rather extensive three day consultation process before you pay out of pocket (not covered by the g'ovt health care plan) for IVF. If accepted you then book about two weeks holidays for the procedure.
Why are you asking me this? Ask a specialist physician about how it's done. |
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| Moonbat | Nov 15 2008, 02:32 AM Post #222 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Either it's proved or it's speculation? Well then i guess by your definition it's speculation then. Here's some more speculation: if i dropped an anvil off the empire state building it wouldn't fly into the sky and spell out "this is impossibly improbable" in bright blue letters - I can't prove that so it's speculation according to your definition. It's also speculation to state that a human has never given birth to a cow. Can't prove it so by your definition it counts as speculation. (Infact if you use that terminology all statements made on the basis of empirical science become speculation because none of those statements can be proved). Both of my outlandish scenarios above are possible i.e. there's a non zero probability of the anvil flying into the sky and writing out messages and there is a non zero probability of a human giving birth to a cow - it's just that those probabilities are impossibly small, if you wanted a decent chance of seeing such events you would have to wait far longer than the lifetime of the universe. Realistically the claim that there are people around today who would not be were a decision to terminate a previous pregnancy not made is an undeniable. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 15 2008, 03:40 AM Post #223 |
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MAMIL
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Read Apple's original post. Firstly, I think you need to re-examine your expectations of what you can achieve. The root cause of the problem isn't actually abortion, but unwanted pregnancy. If you can reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies then you automatically reduce the number of abortions. I'm pretty sure that the US has significantly more unwanted pregnancies per capita than other Western countries. Secondly, stop being so freaking preachy and shrill. Nobody wants to work with someone who shouts at them the whole time. Try and understand the other person's viewpoint without using terms such as 'mass-murder', 'holocaust', 'evil'. These are not particularly constructive terms. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| bachophile | Nov 15 2008, 04:36 AM Post #224 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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yup. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_tee_pre_percap-health-teenage-pregnancy-per-capita oh and pretty cool web site... http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Daniel | Nov 15 2008, 04:44 AM Post #225 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You betcha. |
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