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| being pro life outside the political arena | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,743 Views) | |
| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 04:18 PM Post #151 |
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Pisa-Carp
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In addition to being hyperbolic in the extreme it's wrong by definition to claim that someone who favours taking what they consider to be the lesser of two evils over the greater of two evils is "promoting evil". And i'll also add that you are not in a position to speak about whether other people's views are held on moral grounds or on some other grounds. I certainly consider it wrong to force women to bring an early pregnancy to term. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Jolly | Nov 14 2008, 04:20 PM Post #152 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Choices have consequences. Some people make dumb choices. Some people make dumb choices over and over again. Daddy always told me that if I was man enough to make a baby, I was man enough to take care of one...the flip side of that is true for a woman, also. You spread your legs for pleasure, don't come crying to me, or to society for becoming pregnant. And don't come to me looking for approval, if you decide to kill a life in order to make your life a little less inconvenient. Choices have consequences. Don't give me the "it's just a fetus argument, either". When I first got into the hospital, we'd let some extremely preemie babies die in the corner. You'd see those little chests heaving for air, trying to make lungs work that weren't developed enough to do so. But life wants to live...they'd struggle, they'd turn and they would eventually get weaker and weaker until they breathed no more...sometimes it would take hours before death mercifully came. Know what? We routinely save babies that small nowadays and we're getting better everyday. So...what used to be considered by some as an abortable fetus, is fully capable of making it in a modern NICU. And we keep pushing the survival rate for weight limit and gestational period down. The fetus you aborted 15 years ago, is a viable baby today. Choices have consequences. People tell me they know folks that have had abortions and regretted it their entire life. Good. It shows that they may have a thread of common decency in their bodies, if an abortion memory pains them. So, if they make that choice, they must live with those memories. Choices have consequences. It saddens me to think of the many couples who would love to adopt, but there are no children available. In not so many decades past, it was considered the right thing to do, to carry a baby to full term if a girl had made a mistake, and if she did not want the baby, to let some loving couple have it...not for monetary gain, but for the best for all involved. Sadly, the mantra today is to abort the child, it is much more convenient. I don't see how any person, particularly a woman, especially a mother, can condone the killing of the unborn. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 04:20 PM Post #153 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No Kathy, You really do need to learn to follow an argument. I did not draw the comparison. I simply replaced Quirt's formula "abortion should be safe, legal and rare" with child abuse and kiddie porn to test it. It obviously fails that test. I could have said "housebreaking and credit card fraud should be safe, legal and rare" and shown the same thing. You are just too dogmatically rigid in your thinking to understand the fallacy in his logic, and instead come out fangs bared for anyone who defends the notion that innocent human life cannot be killed with moral impunity. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jolly | Nov 14 2008, 04:23 PM Post #154 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Be careful, as the logical extension of your argument is to extinguish any biomass not needful to the collection of biomass known as "society". By acclimation, we can always abort you. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 04:24 PM Post #155 |
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I am the grey one
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Nothing I said discounts the possibility that a fetus could die before birth and that fact does nothing to impair the point I am making. your statement about the prenatal care is just as speculative as the one about people being born because of abortion. At least it has the advantage of not appearing absurd on its face. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| brenda | Nov 14 2008, 04:26 PM Post #156 |
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..............
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Thank you for sharing that prior thread again, Dewey. That was from before I joined here. It's a great message and very needed. I also appreciated reading the posts that went with that thread. It was very moving to have people share their personal views and experiences. This thread has saddened me, too. |
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 04:29 PM Post #157 |
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I am the grey one
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The only reason I responded at all is because your logical inversion of Larry's argument was absurd. I think there are more compelling reasons for banning abortion. I can also see the other side of the argument. I am not in favor of an outright ban but I am in favor of letting the individual states decide how to deal with the issue. We would not be having these brush wars if the Supreme Court had not butted in by inventing new rights. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 04:29 PM Post #158 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I don't see how that follows at all. What's the argument you think i'm applying and how does it lead to that conclusion? Also I was interested to read you comments about foetuses gasping for air - that sounds pretty horrendous watching something that wants to breathe, suffocate must be heart rending but uh. don't you hunt? |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 04:33 PM Post #159 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Well quantum mechanics is absurd - doesn't stop it being accurate. You've offered no counter argument to my repeated explanations i can only assume you have none. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Jolly | Nov 14 2008, 04:35 PM Post #160 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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No hunter wishes to see what he kills, suffer. Same things goes for when we butcher...I can slaughter beeves, hogs and chickens, but the Shakespeare rule always applies... If t'were done... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 04:35 PM Post #161 |
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I am the grey one
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So, you are basing the validity of your argument on quantum mechanics? I'm sorry but I had to laugh out loud when I read that.
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 04:35 PM Post #162 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The Three Stooges are absurd as well-- it doesn't stop them from being funny. So take that, JB!
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 04:37 PM Post #163 |
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I am the grey one
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Got me there, bud.
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 04:38 PM Post #164 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I'm not basing the validity of the argument on quantum mechanics. The argument stands on it's own merits - which you haven't addressed. If you think it's strange then I agree, but whether something is strange has nothing to do with whether it's true. That was the point of the quantum mechanics example. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 04:39 PM Post #165 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Fair enough, i certainly wouldn't want any foetus to suffer. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Dewey | Nov 14 2008, 04:40 PM Post #166 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Awfully nice of you. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 04:47 PM Post #167 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I think so. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 04:57 PM Post #168 |
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I am the grey one
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I'm sorry, I should have said you are basing the validity of your argument on the validity of quantum mechanics. I have had a couple of glasses and that one slipped by. You have done nothing to support your argument beyond its bare assertion decorated with some wild speculation. You really think I need to mount something against that? Your argument is absurd on its face and unless you can back it up with something factual do not pretend you can require me to prove it wrong. That is backwards. You prove it to be correct. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| George K | Nov 14 2008, 05:42 PM Post #169 |
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Finally
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I usually stay out of these threads (with good reason), but I read them. I thought this story today might Priest: Obama Voters Must Do Pennance
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 05:45 PM Post #170 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I don't think you have grasped what i've said. Suppose a couple terminates a pregnancy then the goes on to have another pregnancy which results in a child. If you could somehow go back and undo that termination, if you could split reality at that point then in the alternate no-termination world they would not end up with the child they have in the was-a-termination world. Maybe some other child would be born maybe they'd even call it the same name but the odds that it would be the same child that in a different set of circumstances you would end up with idenitical genetic and environmental factors given the insane degree of variation in meiotic division, the success/failure of individual sperm and the environment conditions are impossibly small. QED |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 05:47 PM Post #171 |
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I am the grey one
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S-p-e-c-u-l-a-t-i-o-n. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 14 2008, 05:54 PM Post #172 |
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MAMIL
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OK - can I take a moment to ask a question. It's pretty obvious that none of the pro-lifers are willing to make any compromises, which was the point of the initial point of the discussion. My question: How well has that strategy worked so far in reducing the number of abortions? If a strategy isn't working, why keep pursuing it? This debate is strangely reminiscent of WW1. 'We've been dropping artillery on 'em for 2 solid days, sergeant , so we're absolutely sure they're all dead. We're just about to give the order to march slowly towards the trenches. Yes, I know, I know, the last 15 times we did this everybody got killed, but this time is going to be different!' Wouldn't it be better to half the number of abortions than have no change at all? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 05:56 PM Post #173 |
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I am the grey one
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Look, I present the argument that if you abort a child it will not be born. You counter with a speculative argument. There is no way you can show the two to be equivalent. Unless you have some hard data (obviously, really hard data) there is no way you can make that claim. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 06:29 PM Post #174 |
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Pisa-Carp
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What specifically is speculation: that there are people who go on to have children after having terminations or that the variability of meiotic division, sperm selection while in the reproductive tract, and environment factors is mind bogglingly huge? I could no doubt find numbers for meiosis andsperm selection and with a bit of we could probably get a ball park figure (within a few orders of magnitude for environmental influence) but it's trivial that it's going to be an insanely small number. Do you not see that? |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Jolly | Nov 14 2008, 06:30 PM Post #175 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Or maybe having a father have sex with only half of his female children? Yeah, bad analogy, but....if something is inherently wrong, it is just as wrong in little pieces as it is in its entirety... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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