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| being pro life outside the political arena | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,744 Views) | |
| Copper | Nov 14 2008, 12:14 PM Post #126 |
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Shortstop
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Maybe they don't want to think about what you did to that child to get the picture. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| M&M's | Nov 14 2008, 12:15 PM Post #127 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Thanks Quirt. I reported it. |
| My child shows GOOD CHARACTERIZATION in an ongoing game of D&D | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 12:23 PM Post #128 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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AFAICT Jeffrey does, and allows abortion up to delivery. I have no idea what Moonbat thinks since it all depends on what chemical reactions are occurring at the moment that determines morality. But that does not matter since the probort lobby has been vociferous in defending abortion at all stages of pregnancy and opposed to bans on partial birth abortion. So you need to address the problem of not having nuanced thinking to the proborts, not the pro life. As for my last point -- what the hell are you talking about. You are way out of bounds telling me about my experience of child abuse. Just shut up now and walk away before I unleash a storm of invectives on you for your crap. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 12:26 PM Post #129 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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As for Obama's record, the bill was thus
Obama's argument for his "present" vote, which basically counted as a "no" was thus:
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 12:26 PM Post #130 |
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Pisa-Carp
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The whole idea is hopeless - perhaps we should oppose the drive to cut down the rate of teenaged pregnancy because it's a rock solid certainty that reducing teenaged pregnancy means some people aren't born as a result. Or perhaps we should not prevent rape because as a result of that prevention it's certain that someone won't be born. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| JBryan | Nov 14 2008, 12:33 PM Post #131 |
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I am the grey one
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I am attacking your logic, not your conclusions. Using my logic to arrive at different conclusions does nothing to undermine the logic. It is a rock solid certainty that some people are not born as a result of cutting down teen pregnancy but that is not a reason to eschew cutting down teen pregnancy any more than the fact that some people are not born as a result of abortion is a reason to oppose abortion. There are other moral considerations but I was not addressing that. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| kathyk | Nov 14 2008, 01:27 PM Post #132 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Sounds like a plausible explanation to me. That you don't recognize that piece of carp legislation was nothing more than a backdoor ploy by the anti-abortion movement to make all abortion illegal shows how dense you can be, and if you do recognize it, then how intellectually dishonest you are (I suspect the latter). BTW, you realized, didn't you, Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is "a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support." http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Nov 14 2008, 01:33 PM Post #133 |
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Pisa-Carp
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No, I won't shut up. And especially not because you tell me to. You whose MO on this board is to degrade and ridicule others should be able to take a little bit of your own medicine now and again. You made the pretty disgusting (IMO) argument that pedophilia and child abuse are preferable to abortion, without even qualifying how early the abortion took place (of course that is of no import to black and white, dogmatic thinkers - life is life is life when it's utero - when it's outside, well it's on its own). You then said that abused children can get over it. To me that shows a remarkable insensitivity to the victims of child abuse. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 14 2008, 01:44 PM Post #134 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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It's that final sentence that is hyperbolically ridiculous. Oh, and yes, even your statement is a bit speculative. Some fetuses that are not aborted die before birth, you know. And, one might guess, the sort of person who would have an abortion might be more likely to fail to take the sort of pre-natal care that would improve the odds. You can ignore reality, if you like, but, when you spread the odds across millions or billions of people, there are gonna be some who fit my supposedly speculative statement. You might even know one. I might, too. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 01:46 PM Post #135 |
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Pisa-Carp
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But all I said was that there are people who do not exist but would exist had a decisions to terminate been made. Likewise there are people today who do exist but would not had decisions to terminate not been made - for example suppose a couple have a child after a previous termination abortion, clearly there are examples of that, it's a statistical certainty that that particular child would not exist had it's parents not gone through with a termination.
I agree completely, and i'm suprised that given that agreement you took issue with me rather than Larry who made the exact opposite claim. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 02:01 PM Post #136 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I think you might have the wrong end of the stick on that last one and that he meant that abused children can, in principle, recover, whereas an abortion is implicitly permanent. (I don't agree with him in the slightest but i don't think he was intending to detract from the severity of child abuse). |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 02:24 PM Post #137 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So don't shut up. Keep screeching. You don't know the first thing about anyone's history with child abuse so knock off your nonsense that you think I've had very little first hand experience with child abuse. You don't know anything about my experience Kathy, and you are being a complete jerk. I am really sorry if your dad or your uncle or some other family member abused you. That should never happen to anyone. But if you can't even figure out the subtext of what I've been trying to allude to politely, then you have no high ground here for your sanctimonious lecturing about giving people their own medicine. Once again I have to conclude that you must be rude to your kids to teach them to be kind. Do you hit them to teach them to be nice to one another? How well does that work, Kathy? You seem dense to the fact that that saying one bad thing is worse than another bad thing is not the same as saying either is "preferable". Both are REALLY REALLY bad things. You can't be that dense, especially after its been explained to you that you are misinterpreting it. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 02:25 PM Post #138 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Thank you, Moonbat. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 02:28 PM Post #139 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Where on earth did you ever get that from what I wrote???? I have a feeling you are having a conversation with yourself on this -- working out your own demons -- and not with me since I have never said anything of the sort. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 14 2008, 02:45 PM Post #140 |
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Emperor Pengin
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What the hell? Having a child is an evil? Killing a fetus is less of an evil than having the child? How about killing a three month old infant because it's too hard for the mother to cope? Is that a legitimate regrettable choice for the mother, too? There are choices. Women have choices. The number one choice is whether or not to have sex to begin with (and Do Not take this conversation off target about rape victims, that is a different topic and should be discussed seperately. I'm talking about abortion as birth control). The second choice is birth control. The third choice is keeping and raising the baby or adoption if she does become pregnant. Taking an unborn life must not be an option. Plain and simple. There are other choices. You want more explicit sex ed classes? Fine. They will not work to the extent we need as long as abortion is a choice that's on the table. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 14 2008, 02:55 PM Post #141 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Oh, there we go, the old "Nuanced Thinking" ploy. When did it become right to condemn those that have and hold to moral convictions? Just because some have the strength of character to hold to what's right and fight for it, rather than take the easy way out by concocting in their own minds a faulty logic path that will allow them to justify whatever they want? That is just plain wrong. Rather than face the problems society has and try to fix them, we take the path of least resistance. Overpopulation in areas? Food shortages? To financially difficult to raise children? Too many young men and women incapable of accepting the consequences and responsibility of their actions? That's too much work. Let's just kill off 50 million unborn children. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Moonbat | Nov 14 2008, 03:18 PM Post #142 |
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Pisa-Carp
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You appear quite happy to condemn those who hold moral convictions different from your own. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 14 2008, 03:40 PM Post #143 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Wrong. I'm not happy at all at having to attack somebody's position. I won't dignify those positions, however, by calling them moral convictions, when by their own unwitting acknowledgement they are amoral convictions. When arguing for a conviction on the basis that it's the lesser of two evils, one is acknowledging that they are promoting an evil. Therefore, it can not be a moral conviction, and I will not recognize it as such. I also disagree with the calling of it a conviction, as a conviction is an ideal held strongly, clearly, and firmly. A conviction can not be colored by "nuanced thinking" as nuances shift. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| kathyk | Nov 14 2008, 03:45 PM Post #144 |
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Pisa-Carp
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You really should look in a mirror. I can't tell you how many times you have offended me with your personal, obsessively argumentative attacks, and I see you do it to others all the time. Your post here is case in point, making slanderous remarks about my family, about whom you know nothing and your silly remarks (which seems to be a recurrent theme of yours) about my parenting skills. My remark to you may have jarred you, but it was apropo to your rather shocking opinion that the abortion of a weeks old zygote is preferable to child abuse and pedophilia. It really does make wonder if you have ever paid much attention to the huge, huge problem of child abuse. If you want people to play nice with you, you should learn to do the same. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Nov 14 2008, 03:52 PM Post #145 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Yes, LD, for many women it is most definitely an evil, in the sense that it can present an unbearable burden. And of course killing a three month old infant is wrong or a one minute old infant. Indeed there are choices. And God willing, the choice to have a legal and safe abortion before the viability of the fetus will remain an option - a choice of the lesser of evils. Much better that than the option of desperate women losing their own lives in back allies with coat hangers up their uteri, which everyone knows will happen again if abortion is ever criminalized. I also don't believe for a minute that criminalizing abortion would have an appreciable effect on people's sexual activity. I have never met a person who thought of abortion as means of birth control. It is almost always a choice made out of desperation. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 04:04 PM Post #146 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You started this with your bullsh!t argument that I was saying child abuse was preferable to abortion and then your bullsh!t that this indicates rigid and dogmatic thinking.
You cannot be that stupid to think that this is a binary choice: oh if we don't abort the child WILL be abused, or if you are against abortion than you are in favor of child abuse. Maybe you can be that stupid since that is what you keep coming back despite the fact that once you raised this absurd argument I corrected it. And corrected it. And corrected it. So your hypocritical bullsh!t about playing nice doesn't carry any sway for me, Kathy -- you launched into this with mischaracterizations of my views and personal attacks. If you think innocent human life can be killed on demand in certain circumstances, just say so. It wouldn't particularly shock me that you think that is morally permissible, and at least we could have an honest discussion about that rather than your hiding behind poster children for the abused. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Dewey | Nov 14 2008, 04:08 PM Post #147 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Some of this thread literally makes me sick. I can't begin to describe the grief in my heart as I read some of it. ![]() Some of you here might remember this earlier post of mine, from last July. http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/topic/377397/1/#new |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| kathyk | Nov 14 2008, 04:10 PM Post #148 |
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Pisa-Carp
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No, IT, you started it with your remark that it's preferable. I was responding to you. Do I need to do a chronological redux for you? Edit: Never mind, I have. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Nov 14 2008, 04:13 PM Post #149 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Just to remind you of who first drew the comparison between abortion and child abuse. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 14 2008, 04:16 PM Post #150 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You are using redux in some weird way. It doesn't mean what you seem to think it does. But yes -- show me where I ever said it was preferable. To prefer one thing over the other implies that there is choice between the two. There is no binary choice here, Kathy, other than to say it is impossible to further abuse a child you have already killed by abortion. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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