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| being pro life outside the political arena | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,748 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | Nov 12 2008, 11:49 AM Post #26 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Around 50 million dead in America alone by legal abortion. Are you trying to make a mathematical argument for what is the single worst atrocity? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 12 2008, 11:58 AM Post #27 |
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Emperor Pengin
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To equate abortion to excess drinking or adultery... I don't even know what to say... The only thing I'm going to say is that Pro-Life groups need to come up with more and better choices than abortion. I'm all about prochoice, as long as abortion isn't one of the options. That means better support systems for unwed mothers. That means better promotion and execution of adoptive programs. That means counseling sessions for young ladies, and that means explicit sex education with a high emphasis on abstinance. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 12 2008, 11:59 AM Post #28 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I can't believe you referred to that as logic. Actually, I can, I just continue to marvel that you think of that as logic. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| apple | Nov 12 2008, 12:09 PM Post #29 |
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one of the angels
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i certainly do not follow your logic. at all. (Remember, my dad was a logician). |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| Frank_W | Nov 12 2008, 12:41 PM Post #30 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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My view is that it's primarily a women's issue. Abortions have been going on since the dawn of time. Regardless of my personal feelings about pro-choice or pro-life, I would like the procedure to remain available in a medically clean and competent facility, and performed by someone licensed and trained in the procedure for the safety and well-being of the patient. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 12 2008, 02:44 PM Post #31 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Do you really need it spelled out? You think child abuse and kiddie porn are bad things. Not everyone does. I think abortion is a bad thing. Not everyone does. If X then Y X then Y. Let X be "Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." Let Y be "If both sides could agree on that principle, the rhetoric could get toned down." Let X be "child abuse and kiddie porn should be safe, legal and rare" Let Y be " If both sides could agree on that principle, the rhetoric could get toned down." Show me the fallacy, instead of your blustering ad hominem. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 12 2008, 02:47 PM Post #32 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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They already do that. They facilitate adoption, they have social services for unwed mothers, they provide counseling (both before and after abortion). They have explicitly pro abstinence sex ed programs. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| apple | Nov 12 2008, 03:23 PM Post #33 |
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one of the angels
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words cannot be assigned numerical value |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| Frank_W | Nov 12 2008, 03:26 PM Post #34 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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IT, that's asinine. So much for the spirit of compromise. This is exactly why I don't hold out much hope for it... *sigh*
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Luke's Dad | Nov 12 2008, 03:37 PM Post #35 |
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Emperor Pengin
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This is an issue where there is no compromise. Either you believe a fetus is a living human being or not. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Frank_W | Nov 12 2008, 03:56 PM Post #36 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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It doesn't matter what I believe. People have turned it into a religious crusade, and people mistakenly believe that their beliefs are something that must be fought and died for in the trenches. It's ridiculous to equate abortion with child abuse and kiddie porn. What I believe, is that the procedure should be available in a medically safe environment. That's where my concern over the issue ends. What people choose to do is between them, their spouses, their clergy, and their God. It's not for me, a fallible and often conflicted and imperfect human being to judge. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 12 2008, 04:05 PM Post #37 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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What is asinine? I think abortion is much worse than kiddie porn or child abuse. I simply am pointing out why Quirt's argument is flawed. He thinks that "safe, rare, and legal" is some sort of middle ground. I don't think that it can be safe since someone dies. I don't think it should be legal since the state does not have the moral authority to allow killing of innocents. I hope it would become rare. How can you allow for any compromise on killing innocent people if you won't allow compromise on lesser things like kiddie porn? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Frank_W | Nov 12 2008, 04:11 PM Post #38 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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IT, I realize that this is your view, and that it is also a part of your religious beliefs. As such, you are neither interested in nor able to discuss or compromise on the issue, so we will have to agree to disagree. I apologize for calling your views asinine. Peace. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 12 2008, 04:19 PM Post #39 |
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Bull-Carp
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Unless of course, the killing of innocents happen to be collateral damage in what the state determines is a just war. |
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| apple | Nov 12 2008, 04:22 PM Post #40 |
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one of the angels
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it doesn't matter. it is possible for some of the electorate to believe that a fetus is human, andfor some to believe that it is not human, and still arrive at real solutions that reduce abortion. the issue is not when one believes life starts. regardless of the timetable the majority believe abortion is awful. both sides working together should be able to provide significant reduction in the numbers of abortions performed. it is my belief that money funneled to political organizations could be better spent. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| Frank_W | Nov 12 2008, 04:29 PM Post #41 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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I agree with you, Apple.
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Copper | Nov 12 2008, 04:50 PM Post #42 |
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Shortstop
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With or without any religious influence abortion is murder. Let's discuss murder. My opinion is exactly the same. When I see people ask for middle ground on murder I don't feel any need for compromise. Abortion in a safe, clean supportive environment looks exactly the same as a gangland drive-by to me. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 12 2008, 05:03 PM Post #43 |
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Bull-Carp
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So Copper do I take it that couples who undergo IVF may be accomplices in murder? Not necessarily all fertilized eggs get implanted. Is the process of selection in IVF tantamount to abortion? |
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| Frank_W | Nov 12 2008, 05:39 PM Post #44 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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I didn't say anything about a supportive environment. Ideally, the procedure would be not be easy to obtain. There would be required counseling, the woman advised of her options, (adoption, etc.) with abortion being the last resort, and only available early in the first trimester. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Copper | Nov 12 2008, 06:04 PM Post #45 |
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Shortstop
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It's a close call. I spent enough on IVF decades ago that I thought my name should be over the door of the clinic. Maybe it's more like a DNR, but if you want to call it murder go ahead. Either way, it's no fun. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 12 2008, 06:12 PM Post #46 |
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Bull-Carp
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Regardless, is it tantamount to abortion? |
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| Copper | Nov 12 2008, 06:21 PM Post #47 |
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Shortstop
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That depends how you define "Regardless" and how you define "tantamount". Maybe even how you define "abortion". If by "Regardless" you mean you want to take no notice of what I've already said, no thanks. If by "tantamount" you mean it has the same effect - no, it doesn't. And you would really have to twist the definition of "abortion" to make it fit. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| Jolly | Nov 12 2008, 07:32 PM Post #48 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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IT is simply using one of the modus arguments. If you didn't learn that from your father, you didn't learn much about logic. I've only got one stinkin' college course in critical thought, and I knew that much. As for abortion...as the rednecks would say down here, "Not no, but Hell no!" Seriously, rape, incest or life of the mother...and that's as far as I go (and that's further than the governor of my state, BTW). |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 12 2008, 08:10 PM Post #49 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Peace. BTW, it is not my religious view. I was firmly opposed to abortion from my grade school biology class, long before I was giving anything a religious perspective. Pax. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 12 2008, 08:13 PM Post #50 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Even then the State does not have the moral authority to allow the killing of innocents. No one can deliberately take an innocent life, even in time of war. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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So much for the spirit of compromise. This is exactly why I don't hold out much hope for it... *sigh*


4:26 PM Jul 10