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being pro life outside the political arena
Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,735 Views)
kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Thankfully, my pastor is not terribly dogmatic. That's why I love her.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 06:51 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:32 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:09 PM
No, no. No point in discussing what constitutes brain function since you won't agree that you need brain function to constitute a live human being.

But you can start with this ... at least one differentiated brain cell. In the absence of brain cells, there's no brain. And, if there's no brain, there's no brain function.

So that's a starting point. More would likely be required. But, since you won't even concede that, there's no point in discussing it further with you.
Tell me how you can know that the first cell is not the primal brain cell?

If in fact that is the case (just my intuition but for the sake of argument) then indeed we have a live human being according to your definition (again for the sake of argument).
You're a lot better at talking than at listening.

I said, at least twice, that it was a necessary, but necessarily sufficient, condition.

But, are you conceding that if the first cell is undifferentiated, there's no human life?

Didn't think so.
Instead of your snarky "Didn't think so" nonsense, why don't you look up what the phrase "for the sake of argument" means.

You still haven't proven that human brain cell activity is a necessary condition for human life, and your assertion has not been accepted as valid.

The reason is that it has not been accepted is that it seems apparent and demonstrable that human life exists before the development of a differentiated brain cell. In the zygote and blastula and pre-cortex embryo (even when the neopallium develops which have the Cajal-Retzius cells) we already have a discrete entity with the same DNA code that it will have its entire life. When Quirt was a pre-cortex embryo, Quirt had exactly that same unique DNA code as he does today. If he is human today, he was human as a pre cortex embryo.

If you can follow that logic (and not resort to silly ad hominems for once) then talk about the logical predicates.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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Dewey
Nov 15 2008, 07:14 PM
Quote:
 
Cmon what? Where does the moral authority for the notion that a human, worthy of all the protections of the law exists as of conception, other than maybe the Pope?


Well, not that I think it will make any difference to you... there are other passages upon which the orthodox Christian understanding of human life is based, but this one in particular has always been one of my favorites.

Psalm 139

O Lord, you have searched me and known me.
You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away.
You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue, O Lord, you know it completely.
You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it.
Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.
If I take the wings of the morning and settle at the farthest limits of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light around me become night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as the day, for darkness is as light to you.
For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well.
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed.
How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
I try to count them—they are more than the sand; I come to the end—I am still with you.
O that you would kill the wicked, O God, and that the bloodthirsty would depart from me—
those who speak of you maliciously, and lift themselves up against you for evil!
Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.
Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my thoughts.
See if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
That's all very well and good, and I honestly don't mean to be disrespectful, but what if I'm not a Christian? I'm not asking you to do anything that is outside your beliefs, but to ban the morning after pill for the rest of us because of your religious beliefs is a bit much, isn't it?

What happens next - a ban on blasphemy?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM
Chromsomally identical? I guess, as seen under an electron microscope, but otherwise, it appears pretty much the same as a frog or a moose zygote at that stage.


Rana has 26 diploid chromosomes. Homo sapiens sapiens has 46 diploid chromosomes. Cervini vary greatly but the NF is 70.

You really can tell Kathy, if you want to. If you cared to educate yourself. But then you would risk learning too much to maintain your pro legalized abortion stance.
Quote:
 
What gives you the authority to sanctify this as full blown human life worthy of protection under the law? Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?

As I have said before, my stance on abortion has nothing to do with my religion. I was pro life from my grade school and high school biology classes. it really is a simple argument: the diploid human zygote has the same human DNA code it will always have -- which determines every part of it from its embryonic development sequence to what color hair and skin it will have as a fully matured adult.

You are the one claiming it be something other than human, yet cannot give any real reason for that claim other than it doesn't look like a fully born human.

My view has nothing to do with a gut feeling. It is based on science. Show me the science as to how the human diploid zygote is somehow something other than a human being in an early stage of development.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 08:34 PM
I was pro life from my grade school and high school biology classes. it really is a simple argument: the diploid human zygote has the same human DNA code it will always have -- which determines every part of it from its embryonic development sequence to what color hair and skin it will have as a fully matured adult.
You're such a materialist. I generally define human beings by their personality and self rather than the bag of chemicals which define them.

:angel:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 07:31 PM
Exactly. It's your gut feeling. So, why can't you accept that a majority of the citizens of this country have guts that are telling them differently and don't want your ideas forced upon them in this most personal of arenas?
People had gut feelings that it's ok to own slaves and that blacks were subhuman. Gut feeling is no way to establish a rule of law.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
john d'oh, did u say 7 pages back that your friend had children through the socialist NHS???

shame shame...

dont know what's worse...socialist bred children or...abo...

no i wont say it. bad taste.

sitting and reading from the outside...the thread is just going in circles...

And go round and round and round
In the circle game.




"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 08:40 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 08:34 PM
I was pro life from my grade school and high school biology classes. it really is a simple argument: the diploid human zygote has the same human DNA code it will always have -- which determines every part of it from its embryonic development sequence to what color hair and skin it will have as a fully matured adult.
You're such a materialist. I generally define human beings by their personality and self rather than the bag of chemicals which define them.

:angel:
When I am talking to a materialist I define "human being" by chemical composition since it does no good to speak in terms they don't accept.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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Quote:
 
john d'oh, did u say 7 pages back that your friend had children through the socialist NHS???


Not only are they socialist, they're Welsh. In addition, their dad makes about 4 times what I do.

Bloody taffs.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 08:21 PM
What happens next - a ban on blasphemy?
Patience John, sooner or later they'll propose it. Patience.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
bachophile
Nov 15 2008, 08:47 PM


sitting and reading from the outside...the thread is just going in circles...

And go round and round and round
In the circle game.




And here I was hoping you could put that medical education of yours to some use regarding embryology. Oh well...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
i love it when u speak welsh...drives me wild.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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John D'Oh
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ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 08:49 PM
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 08:40 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 08:34 PM
I was pro life from my grade school and high school biology classes. it really is a simple argument: the diploid human zygote has the same human DNA code it will always have -- which determines every part of it from its embryonic development sequence to what color hair and skin it will have as a fully matured adult.
You're such a materialist. I generally define human beings by their personality and self rather than the bag of chemicals which define them.

:angel:
When I am talking to a materialist I define "human being" by chemical composition since it does no good to speak in terms they don't accept.
I'm surprised at you IT. You've become infected.

:P

If you look at a 1 week old baby, it's very easy to see why it's different from a 1 day old fetus. Mostly, because it throws up and craps on you. They tell us this is an improvement.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:46 PM
AlbertaCrude
Nov 15 2008, 06:28 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM
A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage.
What makes it not human? To all appearances and measure, a human ovum fertilized by a human spermatozoan is a human zygote -- a diploid cell -- which then develops into the embryo and fetus and is born. It is chromosomally identical at each stage of development, so why not consider it a human being? It has human chromosomes. It can be nothing else. What magic happens and when that makes it a "human being" in your estimation?

You of course don't have to accord it "dignity". Many cultures find all sorts of reasons for excluding all categories of human beings from full recognition and full rights under the law. But to say it is not a human being, and to not have some other meaningful term is sloppy thinking.
Not sloppy just pragmatically, materialistically, and proudly delightfully utilitarian.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 08:51 PM
bachophile
Nov 15 2008, 08:47 PM


sitting and reading from the outside...the thread is just going in circles...

And go round and round and round
In the circle game.




And here I was hoping you could put that medical education of yours to some use regarding embryology. Oh well...
ohhh dont drag me into this...and u know my opinion, we've been through this...but to answer your specific question all i will say is this...

the difference between fetal life and human life is not determined by the biologist or the physician but by the metaphysician. it's the determination of the culture or the religion that declares not when life begins but when life begins to be human.

thats it. im outta here.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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John D'Oh
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bachophile
Nov 15 2008, 08:52 PM
i love it when u speak welsh...drives me wild.
The word 'bach' is a very commonly used Welsh word meaning 'small'. I hate to think how 'bachophile' would translate.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
bachophile
Nov 15 2008, 08:57 PM


the difference between fetal life and human life is not determined by the biologist or the physician but by the metaphysician. it's the determination of the culture or the religion that declares not when life begins but when life begins to be human.
i got the subtext on that one. :thumb:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kathyk
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Good for you, IT. Now why don't you take the next logical step and reconcile yourself with the notion (as supported by the law) that the government should stay out of it and leave women alone to make their own reproductive choices based on their own spiritual belief systems.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Copper
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Shortstop
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 07:31 PM
Exactly. It's your gut feeling. So, why can't you accept that a majority of the citizens of this country have guts that are telling them differently and don't want your ideas forced upon them in this most personal of arenas?

No, it is anything but a gut feeling.

It is a clearly identified well defined point.

It is not a fuzzy idea based on emotion, that would be a gut feeling.

To me that fuzzy idea, gut feeling is meaningless.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Nov 16 2008, 06:52 AM
Good for you, IT. Now why don't you take the next logical step and reconcile yourself with the notion (as supported by the law) that the government should stay out of it and leave women alone to make their own reproductive choices based on their own spiritual belief systems.
You obviously missed the subtext Kathy. The difference between fetal life and human life is not determined by the biologist or the physician because there is no scientific difference.

So why don't you take the next logical step and reconcile yourself to the fact that destroying the embryo is destroying an innocent human life.

If you want the government to stay out this act of killing innocent human beings then do you want the government to stay out of all acts of killing innocent human beings? If not, then tell me why your not guilty of special pleading.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
That's all very well and good, and I honestly don't mean to be disrespectful, but what if I'm not a Christian? I'm not asking you to do anything that is outside your beliefs, but to ban the morning after pill for the rest of us because of your religious beliefs is a bit much, isn't it?

What happens next - a ban on blasphemy?


John, the reference to Scripture was specifically directed to kathy, a professing Christian, who asked IT, another professing Christian, where there might be any other authoritative source for a Christian to believe that human life begins at conception, other than the Pope. I offered her one of quite a few possible authoritative sources for a Christian. As I predicted, I was told that the biblical source was no more authoritative to her than the article she posted about the Buddhist opinion about abortion. There are many beautiful aspects about the Buddhist faith, but there are also obvious and stark differences between Buddhist and Christian belief, and when faced with such a difference, the Scriptures should be considered more authoritative for a Christian than Buddhist opinion.

To your comment, "what if I'm not a Christian?" my answer is there's no difference. As a non-Christian, you vote your conscience, and as a Christian, I vote mine. One side or the other will hold sway, and laws will be tailored in general conformance with the majority of the public's will. If at some point, a majority of the public would vote to severely restrict abortion, as I've saide earlier, it will be done because people's hearts and thoughts regarding the matter will have changed. In that situation, no minority is imposing its will on a majority. No one is imposing anything on anyone, to any greater degree than any law which isn't passed unanimously.

So what you're really asking seems to be, "would you support a law that differs from my own views?" (whether my opinion is based on religious belief or anything else is irrelevant) The answer to that question is "Yes, I would, and I imagine I often do, and you do the same."

We don't restrict people's right to work for legislative change on the basis that their beliefs are based in religious faith, and we especially don't restrict legislation to subjects where everyone will agree



"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Thankfully, my pastor is not terribly dogmatic. That's why I love her.


Well, I hope that she is dogmatic enough to maintain basic Christian dogma regarding the nature of God, the nature of humanity, and the nature of the relationship between the two. The views expressed in the article you linked to require non-Christian takes on all three.

As I said in my previous post, there are many wonderful thoughts to come out of Buddhist thought, but there are also many deal-breaker beliefs that are utterly inconsistent with Christian belief (the belief in a personal, transcendent/immanent Creator God itself being an awfully big stumbling block coming right out of the gate), and being a Christian, I would think it more consistent to hew to Christian "dogma" than Buddhist when they are in conflict. I've read your article, and frankly, I found more in it that disputes your abortion beliefs than bolsters them. And the positions that support you are based on decidedly non-Christian understandings of human life, the soul, our origins and our ultimate destination. You're welcome to hold those views, but as regards your faith, at some point you have to decide which team you're playing on. At the moment, from a theological sense, you're trying to play for both the Yankees and the Red Sox.



"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
That's one of the hallmarks of modern liberalism - everything must filter through their ideology instead of the other way around.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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AlbertaCrude
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bachophile
Nov 15 2008, 08:57 PM
...all i will say is this...

the difference between fetal life and human life is not determined by the biologist or the physician but by the metaphysician. it's the determination of the culture or the religion that declares not when life begins but when life begins to be human.

At last the voice of reason. If indeed human life begins at the moment of conception let's work towards rendering the practice of abortion obsolete not only through education but through technology as well. Let's augment education and outreach by bringing together private and public policy and funding to enable engineers, biologists and physicians to create the techonological means to take a human zygote and nurture it to full term in an artficial womb. the resulting infants can then be adopted out to suitable families and couples.

A great opportunity for international public/private partnering and tax dollars well spent.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Nov 16 2008, 10:34 AM
bachophile
Nov 15 2008, 08:57 PM
...all i will say is this...

the difference between fetal life and human life is not determined by the biologist or the physician but by the metaphysician. it's the determination of the culture or the religion that declares not when life begins but when life begins to be human.

At last the voice of reason. If indeed human life begins at the moment of conception let's work towards rendering the practice of abortion obsolete not only through education but through technology as well. Let's augment education and outreach by bringing together private and public policy and funding to enable engineers, biologists and physicians to create the techonological means to take a human zygote and nurture it to full term in an artficial womb. the resulting infants can then be adopted out to suitable families and couples.

A great opportunity for international public/private partnering and tax dollars well spent.
I was thinking along similar line...

Let's start programs to (1) develop fetal transplant technologies, and (2) recruit willing, volunteering surrogate mothers to be hosts to otherwise unwanted zygotes/blastocysts/embryos/fetuses! May be there're armies of right-to-lifers eagerly waiting to sign up already! :thumb:
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