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| being pro life outside the political arena | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,736 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | Nov 15 2008, 06:02 PM Post #326 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You are arguing that it is necessary to define a live human being. There are anacephalic babies born -- sadly doomed to die young -- that are still human beings. There are cases like Schiavo with very limited --even negligible -- brain function that are still human beings. And of course I realize you think it is morally permissible to have such innocent human beings killed by the order of the state or their guardians. The problem with your line of reasoning is that you are taking a function that develops over time as the defining property of what constitutes a human being, and arguing from after that faculty has developed and might be now impaired. That makes no sense. And again, you are resorting to some abstraction of "humanity" rather than addressing that which constitutes the human being. Dogs have brain function, that category means nothing for the discussion of what a human being is. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Copper | Nov 15 2008, 06:03 PM Post #327 |
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Shortstop
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The topic was brain function. Then you tried to turn it into differentiated brain cells. Then poor dead people in the street Now acorns and oak trees. With or without acorns there is still life in a single human cell. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM Post #328 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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i answered that above. The acorn parallel does not work to support your case. An acorn needs to be germinated to become a seedling. Once that happens it is a growing oak tree in an early stage of development. A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 15 2008, 06:07 PM Post #329 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Yes, the topic was brain function. There's no human life without human brain activity. (Sorry, IT, dog brains don't count ... we put millions of innocent dogs to death every year in shelters.) And I pointed out that you can't have brain function without a brain. And you can't have a brain without differentiated brain cells. Try to follow along more than a single step at a time. It's a lot of work trying to keep you up to speed. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 15 2008, 06:13 PM Post #330 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Once again you resort to blustering ad hominems in lieu of reasoned argument. Sorry Quirt, but I will continue to use language as I choose, not how you choose. I am pro-choice in that.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 15 2008, 06:28 PM Post #331 |
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Bull-Carp
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Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage. |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 15 2008, 06:32 PM Post #332 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Tell me how you can know that the first cell is not the primal brain cell? If in fact that is the case (just my intuition but for the sake of argument) then indeed we have a live human being according to your definition (again for the sake of argument). |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 15 2008, 06:46 PM Post #333 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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What makes it not human? To all appearances and measure, a human ovum fertilized by a human spermatozoan is a human zygote -- a diploid cell -- which then develops into the embryo and fetus and is born. It is chromosomally identical at each stage of development, so why not consider it a human being? It has human chromosomes. It can be nothing else. What magic happens and when that makes it a "human being" in your estimation? You of course don't have to accord it "dignity". Many cultures find all sorts of reasons for excluding all categories of human beings from full recognition and full rights under the law. But to say it is not a human being, and to not have some other meaningful term is sloppy thinking. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 15 2008, 06:51 PM Post #334 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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You're a lot better at talking than at listening. I said, at least twice, that it was a necessary, but necessarily sufficient, condition. But, are you conceding that if the first cell is undifferentiated, there's no human life? Didn't think so. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Copper | Nov 15 2008, 06:53 PM Post #335 |
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Shortstop
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Lack of brain function may signal the end of life, not the beginning. While that may be some sort of legally accepted definition I don't believe it is a valid biological certainty. I don't believe that there is anything like a valid biological certainty on this matter. Other than, of course, the beginning. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| kathyk | Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM Post #336 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Chromsomally identical? I guess, as seen under an electron microscope, but otherwise, it appears pretty much the same as a frog or a moose zygote at that stage. What gives you the authority to sanctify this as full blown human life worthy of protection under the law? Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly? |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Jolly | Nov 15 2008, 06:59 PM Post #337 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Science. Simple science. Once you encode the genome, one does not raise hares from human DNA. Or sharks. Or lions. You have a human. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Copper | Nov 15 2008, 07:01 PM Post #338 |
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Shortstop
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Come on. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| kathyk | Nov 15 2008, 07:02 PM Post #339 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Right. A human life, even though up to 70% of fertilized eggs will be naturally purged through miscarriage. Boy, God must be evil. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Nov 15 2008, 07:04 PM Post #340 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Cmon what? Where does the moral authority for the notion that a human, worthy of all the protections of the law exists as of conception, other than maybe the Pope? |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Copper | Nov 15 2008, 07:08 PM Post #341 |
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Shortstop
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Simple biology. But that aside, the question about God speaking directly and the bible is clearly an insult. It is a mocking patronizing attack. Why bother? Come on. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| kathyk | Nov 15 2008, 07:11 PM Post #342 |
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Pisa-Carp
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It's a legitimate question. On what authority do you base your assumption that a fertilized egg is a human? And what do you make of the fact I cited above, Copper, that up to 70% of fertilized zygotes never make it? Is God a mass murderer? |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 15 2008, 07:13 PM Post #343 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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The same DNA can be found on dead people, hair follicles, and the rim of a highball glass. That doesn't make the highball glass a human being. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Dewey | Nov 15 2008, 07:14 PM Post #344 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well, not that I think it will make any difference to you... there are other passages upon which the orthodox Christian understanding of human life is based, but this one in particular has always been one of my favorites. Psalm 139 O Lord, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, O Lord, you know it completely. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it. Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and settle at the farthest limits of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me fast. If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light around me become night,” even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as the day, for darkness is as light to you. For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed. How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! I try to count them—they are more than the sand; I come to the end—I am still with you. O that you would kill the wicked, O God, and that the bloodthirsty would depart from me— those who speak of you maliciously, and lift themselves up against you for evil! Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my thoughts. See if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Copper | Nov 15 2008, 07:14 PM Post #345 |
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Shortstop
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I think if you try to think about God in human terms you are probably headed in the wrong direction. Anyone/Anything capable of creating the universe is nothing like any human I know, mass murderer or otherwise. I have no idea how many never make it, if it's 70%, then it's 70%. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| Jolly | Nov 15 2008, 07:15 PM Post #346 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Hiball glasses don't have that God-given spark of life. That diploid does. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Copper | Nov 15 2008, 07:24 PM Post #347 |
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Shortstop
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I don't think authority has anything to do with it. I don't know where else I could draw the line. I have no other basis for drawing it. Sure there is plenty of screaming political nonsense based on no authority at all, and there are legal opinions. I'm just drawing a line the best I can, not based on religion, law, politics, acorns or screaming. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| kathyk | Nov 15 2008, 07:30 PM Post #348 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Lovely passage, Dewey. I have a special fondness for the psalms which as organist, I have to set to hymn tones every week. But, yes, I'm just a lowly Lutheran, so of course a full understanding is beyond my healenly ken In all seriousness, it proves absolutely nothing more than the article I posted about how Buddhists deal with the issue of abortion. Did you read it? If not, I recommend you do. It might give you some food for thought. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| kathyk | Nov 15 2008, 07:31 PM Post #349 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Exactly. It's your gut feeling. So, why can't you accept that a majority of the citizens of this country have guts that are telling them differently and don't want your ideas forced upon them in this most personal of arenas? |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Dewey | Nov 15 2008, 07:45 PM Post #350 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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The point is that since you won't find one single reference in the Christian scriptures of zygotes, embryos, or the exact phrase "Human life begins at conception, Kathy," you will refuse to acknowledge any scriptural authority to dispute your own preset opinion, regardless of what texts are offered in answer to your question. There will always be another wrinkle thrown in to rationalize your own beliefs. Your denominational tradition doesn't matter in this regard. But I've got to say that I doubt the Lutheran Church would consider Buddhist writings to be an authoritative theological source for one of its own adherents. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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