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being pro life outside the political arena
Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,736 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:48 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 05:39 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:09 PM
No, no. No point in discussing what constitutes brain function since you won't agree that you need brain function to constitute a live human being.

But you can start with this ... at least one differentiated brain cell. In the absence of brain cells, there's no brain. And, if there's no brain, there's no brain function.

So that's a starting point. More would likely be required. But, since you won't even concede that, there's no point in discussing it further with you.
Of course brain function does not define a live human being. No individual function that humans generally share defines membership in homo sapiens sapiens. Especially those functions that develop over time in the mature specimen.

What scientific and philosophical nonsense you are getting yourself into. :no:
I didn't say it was the only prerequisite. But everyone except the fruitcakes agrees that, if brain function ceases, the person dies.

Hence, brain function is a necessary element of humanity. Not the ONLY necessary element, but a necessary element.
You are arguing that it is necessary to define a live human being. There are anacephalic babies born -- sadly doomed to die young -- that are still human beings. There are cases like Schiavo with very limited --even negligible -- brain function that are still human beings. And of course I realize you think it is morally permissible to have such innocent human beings killed by the order of the state or their guardians.

The problem with your line of reasoning is that you are taking a function that develops over time as the defining property of what constitutes a human being, and arguing from after that faculty has developed and might be now impaired. That makes no sense.

And again, you are resorting to some abstraction of "humanity" rather than addressing that which constitutes the human being. Dogs have brain function, that category means nothing for the discussion of what a human being is.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Copper
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QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:49 PM
Let's see if you can follow simple logic.

You say, a single cell has everything necessary to become a human being.

I point out that an acorn has everything necessary to become an oak tree.

Is an acorn an oak tree?

Because, if it isn't, then perhaps something that has everything necessary to become a human being isn't a human being yet.

The topic was brain function.

Then you tried to turn it into differentiated brain cells.

Then poor dead people in the street

Now acorns and oak trees.

With or without acorns there is still life in a single human cell.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:49 PM
Let's see if you can follow simple logic.

You say, a single cell has everything necessary to become a human being.

I point out that an acorn has everything necessary to become an oak tree.

Is an acorn an oak tree?

Because, if it isn't, then perhaps something that has everything necessary to become a human being isn't a human being yet.
i answered that above. The acorn parallel does not work to support your case.

An acorn needs to be germinated to become a seedling. Once that happens it is a growing oak tree in an early stage of development.

A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Copper
Nov 15 2008, 06:03 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:49 PM
Let's see if you can follow simple logic.

You say, a single cell has everything necessary to become a human being.

I point out that an acorn has everything necessary to become an oak tree.

Is an acorn an oak tree?

Because, if it isn't, then perhaps something that has everything necessary to become a human being isn't a human being yet.

The topic was brain function.

Then you tried to turn it into differentiated brain cells.

Then poor dead people in the street

Now acorns and oak trees.

With or without acorns there is still life in a single human cell.
Yes, the topic was brain function.

There's no human life without human brain activity. (Sorry, IT, dog brains don't count ... we put millions of innocent dogs to death every year in shelters.)

And I pointed out that you can't have brain function without a brain.

And you can't have a brain without differentiated brain cells.

Try to follow along more than a single step at a time. It's a lot of work trying to keep you up to speed.


It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:46 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 05:33 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 04:37 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 12:31 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 11:09 AM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 11:04 AM

proborts
This is another one of your snarky misnomers. I know of no one who is in favor of abortion. No one. People are in favor of a right to choose.

If you insist on calling one side "proborts", then it's equally fair to call the other side "womanhaters".
Jeffrey is completely in favor of abortion. In fact he insists that there are no detrimental effects and that "post abortion syndrome" is a fabrication of the pro life camp.

You can use womanhater if you wish

Thank you. I will henceforth refer to you in any discussion of abortion as a womanhater.
Go right ahead Quirt-- you'll look like a nutter doing so, and MS who is fully a woman would disagree with you.

But it does not surprise me that you would threaten to use language as a tool of coercion or manipulation.
You horse's ass. You know you use pro-bort as a deliberately insulting, misleading, and deceptive term. As I have explained to you, repeatedly. No one is in favor of abortion as a general rule. They are in favor of the right to choose.

And then you have the temerity to accuse me of using language as a tool of coercion or manipulation?

You're either hopelessly lacking in self-awareness, or a pathological liar.
Once again you resort to blustering ad hominems in lieu of reasoned argument.

Sorry Quirt, but I will continue to use language as I choose, not how you choose. I am pro-choice in that. :tongue:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
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ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM
A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:09 PM
No, no. No point in discussing what constitutes brain function since you won't agree that you need brain function to constitute a live human being.

But you can start with this ... at least one differentiated brain cell. In the absence of brain cells, there's no brain. And, if there's no brain, there's no brain function.

So that's a starting point. More would likely be required. But, since you won't even concede that, there's no point in discussing it further with you.
Tell me how you can know that the first cell is not the primal brain cell?

If in fact that is the case (just my intuition but for the sake of argument) then indeed we have a live human being according to your definition (again for the sake of argument).
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Nov 15 2008, 06:28 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM
A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage.
What makes it not human? To all appearances and measure, a human ovum fertilized by a human spermatozoan is a human zygote -- a diploid cell -- which then develops into the embryo and fetus and is born. It is chromosomally identical at each stage of development, so why not consider it a human being? It has human chromosomes. It can be nothing else. What magic happens and when that makes it a "human being" in your estimation?

You of course don't have to accord it "dignity". Many cultures find all sorts of reasons for excluding all categories of human beings from full recognition and full rights under the law. But to say it is not a human being, and to not have some other meaningful term is sloppy thinking.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:32 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 05:09 PM
No, no. No point in discussing what constitutes brain function since you won't agree that you need brain function to constitute a live human being.

But you can start with this ... at least one differentiated brain cell. In the absence of brain cells, there's no brain. And, if there's no brain, there's no brain function.

So that's a starting point. More would likely be required. But, since you won't even concede that, there's no point in discussing it further with you.
Tell me how you can know that the first cell is not the primal brain cell?

If in fact that is the case (just my intuition but for the sake of argument) then indeed we have a live human being according to your definition (again for the sake of argument).
You're a lot better at talking than at listening.

I said, at least twice, that it was a necessary, but necessarily sufficient, condition.

But, are you conceding that if the first cell is undifferentiated, there's no human life?

Didn't think so.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Copper
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QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 06:07 PM

There's no human life without human brain activity.

And I pointed out that you can't have brain function without a brain.

And you can't have a brain without differentiated brain cells.

Try to follow along more than a single step at a time. It's a lot of work trying to keep you up to speed.



Lack of brain function may signal the end of life, not the beginning.

While that may be some sort of legally accepted definition I don't believe it is a valid biological certainty.

I don't believe that there is anything like a valid biological certainty on this matter.

Other than, of course, the beginning.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kathyk
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ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:46 PM
AlbertaCrude
Nov 15 2008, 06:28 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM
A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage.
What makes it not human? To all appearances and measure, a human ovum fertilized by a human spermatozoan is a human zygote -- a diploid cell -- which then develops into the embryo and fetus and is born. It is chromosomally identical at each stage of development, so why not consider it a human being? It has human chromosomes. It can be nothing else. What magic happens and when that makes it a "human being" in your estimation?

You of course don't have to accord it "dignity". Many cultures find all sorts of reasons for excluding all categories of human beings from full recognition and full rights under the law. But to say it is not a human being, and to not have some other meaningful term is sloppy thinking.
Chromsomally identical? I guess, as seen under an electron microscope, but otherwise, it appears pretty much the same as a frog or a moose zygote at that stage. What gives you the authority to sanctify this as full blown human life worthy of protection under the law? Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:46 PM
AlbertaCrude
Nov 15 2008, 06:28 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM
A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage.
What makes it not human? To all appearances and measure, a human ovum fertilized by a human spermatozoan is a human zygote -- a diploid cell -- which then develops into the embryo and fetus and is born. It is chromosomally identical at each stage of development, so why not consider it a human being? It has human chromosomes. It can be nothing else. What magic happens and when that makes it a "human being" in your estimation?

You of course don't have to accord it "dignity". Many cultures find all sorts of reasons for excluding all categories of human beings from full recognition and full rights under the law. But to say it is not a human being, and to not have some other meaningful term is sloppy thinking.
Chromsomally identical? I guess, as seen by an electron microscope, but otherwise, it appears pretty much the same as a frog or a moose zygote at that stage. What gives you the authority to sanctify this as human life? Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?
Science.

Simple science. Once you encode the genome, one does not raise hares from human DNA. Or sharks. Or lions.

You have a human.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Copper
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kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM
Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?

Come on.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kathyk
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Quote:
 
Science.

Simple science. Once you encode the genome, one does not raise hares from human DNA. Or sharks. Or lions.

You have a human.

Right. A human life, even though up to 70% of fertilized eggs will be naturally purged through miscarriage. Boy, God must be evil.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Copper
Nov 15 2008, 07:01 PM
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM
Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?

Come on.

Cmon what? Where does the moral authority for the notion that a human, worthy of all the protections of the law exists as of conception, other than maybe the Pope?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Copper
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kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 07:04 PM
Copper
Nov 15 2008, 07:01 PM
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM
Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?

Come on.

Cmon what? Where does the moral authority for the notion that a human, worthy of all the protections of the law exists as of conception, other than maybe the Pope?

Simple biology.

But that aside, the question about God speaking directly and the bible is clearly an insult.

It is a mocking patronizing attack.

Why bother?

Come on.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kathyk
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It's a legitimate question. On what authority do you base your assumption that a fertilized egg is a human?

And what do you make of the fact I cited above, Copper, that up to 70% of fertilized zygotes never make it? Is God a mass murderer?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Jolly
Nov 15 2008, 06:59 PM
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:46 PM
AlbertaCrude
Nov 15 2008, 06:28 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM
A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage.
What makes it not human? To all appearances and measure, a human ovum fertilized by a human spermatozoan is a human zygote -- a diploid cell -- which then develops into the embryo and fetus and is born. It is chromosomally identical at each stage of development, so why not consider it a human being? It has human chromosomes. It can be nothing else. What magic happens and when that makes it a "human being" in your estimation?

You of course don't have to accord it "dignity". Many cultures find all sorts of reasons for excluding all categories of human beings from full recognition and full rights under the law. But to say it is not a human being, and to not have some other meaningful term is sloppy thinking.
Chromsomally identical? I guess, as seen by an electron microscope, but otherwise, it appears pretty much the same as a frog or a moose zygote at that stage. What gives you the authority to sanctify this as human life? Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?
Science.

Simple science. Once you encode the genome, one does not raise hares from human DNA. Or sharks. Or lions.

You have a human.
The same DNA can be found on dead people, hair follicles, and the rim of a highball glass. That doesn't make the highball glass a human being.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Cmon what? Where does the moral authority for the notion that a human, worthy of all the protections of the law exists as of conception, other than maybe the Pope?


Well, not that I think it will make any difference to you... there are other passages upon which the orthodox Christian understanding of human life is based, but this one in particular has always been one of my favorites.

Psalm 139

O Lord, you have searched me and known me.
You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away.
You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue, O Lord, you know it completely.
You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it.
Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.
If I take the wings of the morning and settle at the farthest limits of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light around me become night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as the day, for darkness is as light to you.
For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well.
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed.
How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
I try to count them—they are more than the sand; I come to the end—I am still with you.
O that you would kill the wicked, O God, and that the bloodthirsty would depart from me—
those who speak of you maliciously, and lift themselves up against you for evil!
Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.
Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my thoughts.
See if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

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Copper
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kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 07:11 PM
What do you make of the fact I cited above, Copper, that up to 70% of fertilized zygotes never make it? Is God a mass murderer?

I think if you try to think about God in human terms you are probably headed in the wrong direction.

Anyone/Anything capable of creating the universe is nothing like any human I know, mass murderer or otherwise.

I have no idea how many never make it, if it's 70%, then it's 70%.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Nov 15 2008, 07:13 PM
Jolly
Nov 15 2008, 06:59 PM
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 06:57 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:46 PM
AlbertaCrude
Nov 15 2008, 06:28 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 06:05 PM
A fertilized ovum has already been "germinated" and is a human being in an early stage of development.
Okay so other than strand of DNA and some amino acids what makes it so human and dignified? I see no reason it should receive any special legal protection at this primitive stage.
What makes it not human? To all appearances and measure, a human ovum fertilized by a human spermatozoan is a human zygote -- a diploid cell -- which then develops into the embryo and fetus and is born. It is chromosomally identical at each stage of development, so why not consider it a human being? It has human chromosomes. It can be nothing else. What magic happens and when that makes it a "human being" in your estimation?

You of course don't have to accord it "dignity". Many cultures find all sorts of reasons for excluding all categories of human beings from full recognition and full rights under the law. But to say it is not a human being, and to not have some other meaningful term is sloppy thinking.
Chromsomally identical? I guess, as seen by an electron microscope, but otherwise, it appears pretty much the same as a frog or a moose zygote at that stage. What gives you the authority to sanctify this as human life? Do you have a Bible passage or has God spoken to you directly?
Science.

Simple science. Once you encode the genome, one does not raise hares from human DNA. Or sharks. Or lions.

You have a human.
The same DNA can be found on dead people, hair follicles, and the rim of a highball glass. That doesn't make the highball glass a human being.
Hiball glasses don't have that God-given spark of life.

That diploid does.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Copper
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kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 07:11 PM

On what authority do you base your assumption that a fertilized egg is a human?

I don't think authority has anything to do with it.

I don't know where else I could draw the line.

I have no other basis for drawing it.

Sure there is plenty of screaming political nonsense based on no authority at all, and there are legal opinions.

I'm just drawing a line the best I can, not based on religion, law, politics, acorns or screaming.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kathyk
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Dewey
Nov 15 2008, 07:14 PM
Quote:
 
Cmon what? Where does the moral authority for the notion that a human, worthy of all the protections of the law exists as of conception, other than maybe the Pope?


Well, not that I think it will make any difference to you... there are other passages upon which the orthodox Christian understanding of human life is based, but this one in particular has always been one of my favorites.

Psalm 139

O Lord, you have searched me and known me.
You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away.
You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue, O Lord, you know it completely.
You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it.
Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.
If I take the wings of the morning and settle at the farthest limits of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me fast.
If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light around me become night,”
even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as the day, for darkness is as light to you.
For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well.
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed.
How weighty to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
I try to count them—they are more than the sand; I come to the end—I am still with you.
O that you would kill the wicked, O God, and that the bloodthirsty would depart from me—
those who speak of you maliciously, and lift themselves up against you for evil!
Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.
Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my thoughts.
See if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


Lovely passage, Dewey. I have a special fondness for the psalms which as organist, I have to set to hymn tones every week. But, yes, I'm just a lowly Lutheran, so of course a full understanding is beyond my healenly ken :rolleyes2:

In all seriousness, it proves absolutely nothing more than the article I posted about how Buddhists deal with the issue of abortion. Did you read it? If not, I recommend you do. It might give you some food for thought.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Copper
Nov 15 2008, 07:24 PM
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 07:11 PM

On what authority do you base your assumption that a fertilized egg is a human?

I don't think authority has anything to do with it.

I don't know where else I could draw the line.

I have no other basis for drawing it.

Sure there is plenty of screaming political nonsense based on no authority at all, and there are legal opinions.

I'm just drawing a line the best I can, not based on religion, law, politics, acorns or screaming.
Exactly. It's your gut feeling. So, why can't you accept that a majority of the citizens of this country have guts that are telling them differently and don't want your ideas forced upon them in this most personal of arenas?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Lovely passage, Dewey. I have a special fondness for the psalms which as organist, I have to set to hymn tones every week. But, yes, I'm just a lowly Lutheran, so of course a full understanding is beyond my healenly ken


The point is that since you won't find one single reference in the Christian scriptures of zygotes, embryos, or the exact phrase "Human life begins at conception, Kathy," you will refuse to acknowledge any scriptural authority to dispute your own preset opinion, regardless of what texts are offered in answer to your question. There will always be another wrinkle thrown in to rationalize your own beliefs. Your denominational tradition doesn't matter in this regard. But I've got to say that I doubt the Lutheran Church would consider Buddhist writings to be an authoritative theological source for one of its own adherents.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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