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being pro life outside the political arena
Topic Started: Nov 12 2008, 06:24 AM (4,738 Views)
AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Dewey
Nov 15 2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:
 
If it was your 13 year old, barely pubsecent daughter, would you really make her endure carrying that pregnancy to term? I find that utterly cruel.


If it were my child, and I had the legal right to require it, yes, I would. I would cry my eyes out for months, and I would want to kill the rapist. But I would still allow that child to be born. I would hope that my daughter would understand that carrying the baby to term, and giving it up for adoption, would be the only loving, humane and moral way to treat the unborn child. If she didn't, I'd pray that she eventually understood it some day. And even if she didn't, and she never forgave me for the decision, I would still decide in that direction.

So what if the hypothetical daughter were 22 years old? Would you deny her the right of personal choice to terminate a violently conceived and unwanted pregnancy? Shun her if she went against your will and procured an abortion?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 12:26 PM
For what it's worth, Dewy and IT, I quoted IT's words and extrapolated from them. You can call it twisting, but his words were right there juxtaposed with my thoughts.

Now at least you admit that you manufacture arguments not based on what is written and clarified, but on what you decide you want them to mean. You are dishonest, Kathy.

Calling it "juxtaposed" does not make it any less a lie.
Quote:
 


I still will never fathom how people can be more concerned about preventing women from terminating their own pregnancies that have barely begun than protecting the myriad of born children that suffer in our country due to abuse and deprivation. Man, if the energies of the right to lifers were focused on those children, just think what a better country we might have.
Look at your own position. Why don't proborts do the same? Why are they not really helping women by providing alternatives to abortion? Why are they not facilitating adoption?

Because there is money in abortion.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I still don't get why unfertilized eggs don't generate the same passion as fertilized ones.
Weren't those intended to become humans too?
If a woman has an obligation to bring a fertilized egg to full term, why does she not also have an obligation to never let an egg die?

I guess it's all relative.
People just draw a line somewhere. :shrug:
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 12:35 PM
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 11:11 AM
IT - would you seriously claim that taking a morning-after pill is committing a graver injustice than torturing a 4 year old child?
Is it a graver injustice to torture a 4 year old child or to kill a 4 year old child?

Is this some sort of binary thing that if we decry one we are approving the other?

You are way smarter than that sort of nonsense.
It never ceases to amaze me how IT cherry picks his targets for arguments. A few pages back Dewey wrote the following in response to a question from Ax:

Dewey
 
Ax
 
If you cannot accept the above, would you still allow IVF as practiced today knowing such procedures routinely create and destroy "human lives" intentionally and deliberately?


Yes, and I'll go a step further. The surplus embryos thus created should not simpy be destroyed, but should be used in scientific/medical research. I don't believe that human embryos should be created specifically for this purpose, but in the case of a human embryo destined for destruction, this would be the most noble way for the embryo to be used - in short, the embryo would be sacrificed in the hopes of helping others, rather than discarded with yesterday's newspaper.
~ http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/topic/7039911/10/

Odd that the often hurled epithet of utilitarian collectivism is selectively reserved for some but not others.

The Thumperian Dialectic (TM) despite its slick graphics, it's guaranteed 100% bogus like any three dollar bill.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
FWIW, Rennie, I disagree with Dewey on this, and those who point out the apparent inconsistency are right to raise the issue.

And typical that you can't even see the obvious reasonableness of the point that I am making.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Nov 15 2008, 12:44 PM
So what if the hypothetical daughter were 22 years old? Would you deny her the right of personal choice to terminate a violently conceived and unwanted pregnancy? Shun her if she went against your will and procured an abortion?
Typical bombastic rhetoric, Rennie.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
...........
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Not to worry, I pretty much disagree with Dewey on everything....except that statement.

IvoryThumper
 
Typical bombastic rhetoric, Rennie.


Typical supercilious aside, Professor Pomposity.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
God save the child from that knowledge.


Not so fast in that prayer.

If I were a person who had been conceived during a rape, and had been given up for adoption, I would feel bad about the nature of my origin. But it wouldn't feel that I had no right to have been born. And while I would feel loss over never knowing who my birth mother was, I would feel an awesome sense of gratitude and love for her proven love for me, and for human life, seen in her decision to carry me to term. If I were, in fact, conceived in that manner, it would be a testimony to the character of the mother I'd never know, and a lesson in morality for my own life. In other words, it would actually be better for me - and frankly, for others - to know the circumstances of my origin. The fact that my birth father was a criminal in no way makes me less worthy, and that my mother did something that noble, the world should know about it, if for no other reason than to reduce arguments like the one you've been making.

Quote:
 
And God give the the family pf the raped child who chooses to take that child into their own family the strength to avoid seeing the rapist every time they look at the child.


Indeed, God bless any family who did what you've described. Despite my belief that the child should be born, I don't know if I could forget the nature of his/her origin. That's why I specifically mentioned giving the child up for adoption. Even granting that uncertainty, I'm not entirely convinced that, after having first met that child, that I couldn't love it, regardless of who the father was. And I think that many women, if they made that decision, would also feel that way - perhaps even moreso than I could.

Quote:
 
Why not save the child from the additional trauma and end the pregnancy when it is little more than spawn?


Because, as I've already detailed, I don't view the mere nature of the child's origin necessarily being traumatic to the child. Further, though, because I don't view shielding a person from trauma in life as being a valid reason to kill them.

Life is full of trauma. If trauma avoidance were a valid reason to abort, none of us should have ever made it out of the womb in one piece.



"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
For what it's worth, Dewy and IT, I quoted IT's words and extrapolated from them. You can call it twisting, but his words were right there juxtaposed with my thoughts.


Yes, it's your "extrapolation" that I disagree with.

Quote:
 
I still will never fathom how people can be more concerned about preventing women from terminating their own pregnancies that have barely begun than protecting the myriad of born children that suffer in our country due to abuse and deprivation.


Do you feel that I suffer from this problem? Please, elaborate.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 12:35 PM
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 11:11 AM
IT - would you seriously claim that taking a morning-after pill is committing a graver injustice than torturing a 4 year old child?
Is it a graver injustice to torture a 4 year old child or to kill a 4 year old child?

Is this some sort of binary thing that if we decry one we are approving the other?

You are way smarter than that sort of nonsense.
Since you appear unwilling to answer, I'll give my opinion.

Taking a morning-after pill pales into insignificance next to the horrendous crime of torturing a four year old child. I would have no problem at all with a partner of mine doing the former. Thus far, the only torture involving four year olds at our house has been carried out by them rather than on them.

I honestly don't understand how any other answer can be considered valid.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
So what if the hypothetical daughter were 22 years old? Would you deny her the right of personal choice to terminate a violently conceived and unwanted pregnancy? Shun her if she went against your will and procured an abortion?


I couldn't make my adult daughter do anything. As an adult, she is free to do what the law at the time allowed. I would hope that if it happened, she would not want, and the law would not permit, an abortion under the circumstances.

As far as shunning someone, where in any of my opinions would you even begin to think that I could, or would, react that way? If my adult child had an abortion, for whatever reason, I would be disappointed and deeply saddened. But in the same way and for the same reason that I hold it better for the child to be born - i.e., the "Rule of Love" - I would continue to love my daughter.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Not to worry, I pretty much disagree with Dewey on everything....


Well at least you've got a lot of company. You could all get a good deal on imprinted T shirts, or coffee mugs, or something.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 01:29 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 12:35 PM
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 11:11 AM
IT - would you seriously claim that taking a morning-after pill is committing a graver injustice than torturing a 4 year old child?
Is it a graver injustice to torture a 4 year old child or to kill a 4 year old child?

Is this some sort of binary thing that if we decry one we are approving the other?

You are way smarter than that sort of nonsense.
Since you appear unwilling to answer, I'll give my opinion.

Taking a morning-after pill pales into insignificance next to the horrendous crime of torturing a four year old child. I would have no problem at all with a partner of mine doing the former. Thus far, the only torture involving four year olds at our house has been carried out by them rather than on them.

I honestly don't understand how any other answer can be considered valid.
I don't think it pales in significance. In fact the "significance" is what you are missing. Both are grotesque violations of human rights and human dignity. You have just decided that because one of these human beings is in an early stage of development that they are of less value, or that it is less immoral to harm them.

Is it better to torture a new born, who only has pain receptors and no conscious understanding of pain, than a 4 year old who can articulate that they are in pain?

But again, you miss the obvious that this is not a binary moral judgment.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 12:50 PM
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 12:26 PM
For what it's worth, Dewy and IT, I quoted IT's words and extrapolated from them. You can call it twisting, but his words were right there juxtaposed with my thoughts.

Now at least you admit that you manufacture arguments not based on what is written and clarified, but on what you decide you want them to mean. You are dishonest, Kathy.

Calling it "juxtaposed" does not make it any less a lie.
Quote:
 


I still will never fathom how people can be more concerned about preventing women from terminating their own pregnancies that have barely begun than protecting the myriad of born children that suffer in our country due to abuse and deprivation. Man, if the energies of the right to lifers were focused on those children, just think what a better country we might have.
Look at your own position. Why don't proborts do the same? Why are they not really helping women by providing alternatives to abortion? Why are they not facilitating adoption?

Because there is money in abortion.
And you are ridiculous. I have seen you twist people's words beyond recognition. Your bringing up that Illinois anti-abortion law to "prove" that Obama supports letting babies die without medical treatment is case in point.

And, as Quirt already pointed out, your use of terms like "probort" does little to lend credibility to your position.

As to your question of why pro-choice proponents aren't providing alternatives to abortion; as a matter of fact, many are by supporting clinics that provide contraception for women and sex education for youth - two things that many of the anti-choice camp fight adamantly against. I guess a better question than why are the anti-choice people focusing on neglected children, is why aren't they focusing their efforts on prevention?

Money in abortion my eye. Bless the hearts of the doctors that are brave enough to continue to provide the service given the hostile environment the militant anti-choice soldiers have made any clinic where they know abortions are performed.

As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, there is no middle ground with people like you. It's all or nothing - black and white - no room for compromise. Ha, I only wish you could know what it's like to be pregnant for 9 months.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Dewey
Nov 15 2008, 01:28 PM


Quote:
 
I still will never fathom how people can be more concerned about preventing women from terminating their own pregnancies that have barely begun than protecting the myriad of born children that suffer in our country due to abuse and deprivation.


Do you feel that I suffer from this problem? Please, elaborate.
No I don't feel you are one of them, but I've seen all too many who are.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
I don't think it pales in significance. In fact the "significance" is what you are missing. Both are grotesque violations of human rights and human dignity. You have just decided that because one of these human beings is in an early stage of development that they are of less value, or that it is less immoral to harm them.

Is it better to torture a new born, who only has pain receptors and no conscious understanding of pain, than a 4 year old who can articulate that they are in pain?

But again, you miss the obvious that this is not a binary moral judgment.


No, I'm not missing anything. My opinion regarding the humanity of a 2 day old embryo differs from yours. So does that of the American legal system. And you know what, since it's my opinion, I'm pretty much good to go. I have no problem at all with other people not sharing my opinion, just as long as they don't try and force theirs upon me.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Abortion is a multibillion dollar industry, Kathy. Read "Aborting America" by Bernard Nathanson. Why did he work with the other leaders of NARAL to get abortion laws overturned? For the money. Bless their hearts.

I fear for your kids if you begrudge them their pregnancy.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Nov 15 2008, 02:07 PM
Dewey
Nov 15 2008, 01:28 PM


Quote:
 
I still will never fathom how people can be more concerned about preventing women from terminating their own pregnancies that have barely begun than protecting the myriad of born children that suffer in our country due to abuse and deprivation.


Do you feel that I suffer from this problem? Please, elaborate.
No I don't feel you are one of them, but I've seen all too many who are.
Then make a separate post to describe them. Don't spatter me with your overly broad brush, or use me as a convenient wagon to jump on in order to spread your stereotype. For what it's worth, I've seen an awful lot of pro-life people - most of the ones I've encountered, for that matter - who don't fit that stereotype at all.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 02:08 PM
Quote:
 
I don't think it pales in significance. In fact the "significance" is what you are missing. Both are grotesque violations of human rights and human dignity. You have just decided that because one of these human beings is in an early stage of development that they are of less value, or that it is less immoral to harm them.

Is it better to torture a new born, who only has pain receptors and no conscious understanding of pain, than a 4 year old who can articulate that they are in pain?

But again, you miss the obvious that this is not a binary moral judgment.


No, I'm not missing anything. My opinion regarding the humanity of a 2 day old embryo differs from yours. So does that of the American legal system. And you know what, since it's my opinion, I'm pretty much good to go. I have no problem at all with other people not sharing my opinion, just as long as they don't try and force theirs upon me.
What do you mean their "humanity"? Are they human beings (in a particular stage of development) or not? If they are not, then what are they?

This is the absurdity of your position (or why I cannot accept it as valid). We know that they are human beings. Yet we also want them to be dispensable at will, so we talk around that in terms of "humanness" like Quirt or "blind chemicals" like Moonbat or "personhood" like Jeffrey or "humanity" as you do.

But the bottom line is that they are human beings, and those who support abortion while trying to be ethical people refuse to simply state: yes, they are human beings, and yes they are innocent of any crime deserving of the death penalty, and yes I think they can be killed with impunity -- because they cannot explain why in any other case they think that innocent human beings cannot be killed with impunity.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 02:08 PM
Quote:
 
I don't think it pales in significance. In fact the "significance" is what you are missing. Both are grotesque violations of human rights and human dignity. You have just decided that because one of these human beings is in an early stage of development that they are of less value, or that it is less immoral to harm them.

Is it better to torture a new born, who only has pain receptors and no conscious understanding of pain, than a 4 year old who can articulate that they are in pain?

But again, you miss the obvious that this is not a binary moral judgment.


No, I'm not missing anything. My opinion regarding the humanity of a 2 day old embryo differs from yours. So does that of the American legal system. And you know what, since it's my opinion, I'm pretty much good to go. I have no problem at all with other people not sharing my opinion, just as long as they don't try and force theirs upon me.
I see you are the one unwilling to answer questions. Surely you must think it is better to torture a newborn who does not have self awareness of pain than a 4 year old who does. If not, why not?

Really John, you ask me an outlandish question, then refuse to answer mine, then retreat into the "its my opinion and you are trying to force your opinion on me" nonsense. That thing about forcing opinions is way beneath you. Try substituting any other generally accept bad thing into that formula-- housebreaking or credit card fraud.

I suspect that you actually want the government to force people to follow the notion that credit card fraud is a bad thing, and credit card fraud is a much lesser bad thing than killing innocent human beings.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I'll answer your question: Torturing a new born or a four year old is equally bad. Both should be punishable by a considerable jail term. I don't feel that using the morning after pill should be punished in this way. In fact, I don't feel that it should be punished at all, although I understand the pill can make one feel a little nauseous.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
OK, so what grounds do you have for feeling that a 281 day post conception human being and a 1740 day post conception human being have rights that a 2 day post conception human being doesn't have?

(BTW, I am not advocating that women who use day after pills be subject to penalty- that is a whole other discussion).
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kathyk
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ivorythumper
Nov 15 2008, 02:11 PM
Abortion is a multibillion dollar industry, Kathy. Read "Aborting America" by Bernard Nathanson. Why did he work with the other leaders of NARAL to get abortion laws overturned? For the money. Bless their hearts.

I fear for your kids if you begrudge them their pregnancy.
Begrudge them their pregnancy? What ever makes you think I would do that? I look forward to the day one of them makes me a grandma. I also wouldn't begrudge them the decision whether or not to bear children, including terminating an early pregnancy if they felt so inclined.

I can guarantee you anasthaesia is is a much huger industry. If a doc wants to make big bucks, there are plenty of fields to pursue besides performing abortions. And, I couldn't really care less if an Ob/Gyn who performs them is more concerned about lining his pockets than performing a service as long as he is providing good service. Mercenary docs are certainly not limited to this particular practice area.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
John D'Oh
Nov 15 2008, 02:08 PM
Quote:
 
I don't think it pales in significance. In fact the "significance" is what you are missing. Both are grotesque violations of human rights and human dignity. You have just decided that because one of these human beings is in an early stage of development that they are of less value, or that it is less immoral to harm them.

Is it better to torture a new born, who only has pain receptors and no conscious understanding of pain, than a 4 year old who can articulate that they are in pain?

But again, you miss the obvious that this is not a binary moral judgment.


No, I'm not missing anything. My opinion regarding the humanity of a 2 day old embryo differs from yours. So does that of the American legal system. And you know what, since it's my opinion, I'm pretty much good to go. I have no problem at all with other people not sharing my opinion, just as long as they don't try and force theirs upon me.
Amen.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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