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Palin's Big Lie on Afghanistan
Topic Started: Oct 5 2008, 05:28 AM (208 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
During an appearance on Fox News this Friday, Sarah Palin claimed that Barack Obama should be disqualified from serving as president because he had once proclaimed that troops in Afghanistan were "air raiding villages and killing civilians."

If the charge seemed oddly and painfully familiar it's because it has been levied at Obama - and subsequently dismissed - several times before during this election season.

The issue stems from a remark the Illinois Democrat made in August 2007, in Nashua, New Hampshire. Speaking to supporters, the Senator called for an increase of U.S. troops in that war zone because, without the influx, operations were being limited to air raids that resulted in many preventable civilian deaths.

"Now you have narco drug lords who are helping to finance the Taliban," Obama said, "so we've got to get the job done there [in Afghanistan], and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages, and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there."

When the comment was first made, Republicans were eager to mold it into an electoral liability. Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney and the RNC called it disrespectful and unbecoming of a presidential aspirant.

But within a day, objective observers were knifing through the faux-outrage. The AP fact-checked the claim by pointing out that none other than President Bush himself had bemoaned the excessive loss of innocent Afghani lives and the setback such casualties caused for U.S. military efforts there.

And yet, the GOP couldn't and wouldn't let the canard die. One year after Obama's initial remark, the McCain campaign marked the anniversary by randomly raising it in the form of a biting press release. That charge didn't create many waves. (The Huffington Post wrote an article examining that attack as well.) But the McCain campaign kept at it.

On Thursday night, Palin brought it up directly in the vice presidential debate, and actually intensified the smear. Rather than painting the remark as a gaffe borne of inexperience, as Republicans claimed last year, Palin implied that Obama was slandering U.S. forces as little more than murderers.

Now," she declared, "Barack Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air-raiding villages and killing civilians. And such a reckless, reckless comment and untrue comment, again, hurts our cause. That's not what we're doing there. We're fighting terrorists, and we're securing democracy..."

And on Friday, she repeated the line to minimal journalistic resistance.

"Some of his comments that he has made about the war that I think may -- in my world- disqualifies someone from consideration as the next commander in chief," she told Fox News. "Some of his comments about Afghanistan and what we are doing there supposedly- just air raiding villages and killing civilians. That's reckless."

The un-originality of the claim would seem to detract from its general newsworthiness. Not to mention the fact that it appears devoid of any reasonable context. And yet, hours after Palin's appearance on Fox, the headline on the Drudge Report read as follows:

"PALIN: OBAMA COMMENTS DISQUALIFY HIM FOR COMMANDER IN CHIEF"


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/03/s...i_n_131841.html

Here's the link to the fact check:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7081400950.html
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Big lie?
Quote:
 
"We've got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,"


Fact check?
Quote:
 
A check of the facts shows that Western forces have been killing civilians at a faster rate than the insurgents have been killing civilians.

The U.S. and NATO say they don't have civilian casualty figures, but The Associated Press has been keeping count based on figures from Afghan and international officials. Tracking civilian deaths is a difficult task because they often occur in remote and dangerous areas that are difficult to reach and verify.

As of Aug. 1, the AP count shows that while militants killed 231 civilians in attacks in 2007, Western forces killed 286. Another 20 were killed in crossfire that can't be attributed to one party.


How is that a fact check that in any way makes dismissible the quote?

If villages were being air raided as a matter of course and civilians were being killed as a matter of course -- which is what Obama is implying -- the death count would be massive.

His quote is egregiously over the top. Really, Quirt, you need to retitle this thread "Obama's Big Lie on Afghanistan".
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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apple
one of the angels
interesting that faux and fox are so close in spelling
it behooves me to behold
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
You're a fox, Apple, and there is nothing faux about you. :wub:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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George K
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Finally
Well, at least she doesn't want us being there for 100 years.

(still waiting for the WaPo to 'fact check' that comment that was taken out of context) :lol:


Quote:
 
interesting that faux and fox are so close in spelling


Interesting that Osama and ....

oh, never mind.
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QuirtEvans
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Keep it up with the tortured interpretations, IT, because all the neutral, respected sources say that you are full of crap.

Here's from Factcheck.org:

Quote:
 
Killing Afghan Civilians?

Palin said that Obama had accused American troops of doing nothing but killing civilians, a claim she called "reckless" and "untrue."

    Palin: Now, Barack Obama had said that all we're doing in Afghanistan is air-raiding villages and killing civilians. And such a reckless, reckless comment and untrue comment, again, hurts our cause.

Obama did say that troops in Afghanistan were killing civilians. Here’s the whole quote, from a campaign stop in New Hampshire:

    Obama (August 2007): We’ve got to get the job done there and that requires us to have enough troops so that we’re not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there.

The Associated Press fact-checked this one, and found that in fact U.S troops were killing more civilians at the time than insurgents: "As of Aug. 1, the AP count shows that while militants killed 231 civilians in attacks in 2007, Western forces killed 286. Another 20 were killed in crossfire that can’t be attributed to one party." Afghan President Hamid Karzai had expressed concern about these civilian killings, a concern President Bush said he shared.

Whether Obama said that this was "all we're doing" is debatable. He said that we need to have enough troops so that we're "not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians," but did not say that troops are doing nothing else.


http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/fa...lin_debate.html

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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Quirt: you are repeating yourself. I already quoted the significant part of that AP statement. Your source can be as neutral and respected as a Swiss diplomat and still make a logical error.

You seem to miss the point that regardless of whether we did inadvertently kill civilians, in fact even if we inadvertently killed more civilians that the enemy did, even if we agree for the sake of this discussion that those are the "facts", that say absolutely nothing to support Obama's position that as a matter of course we are air raiding villages and killing civilians and NOT killing the enemy.

You are usually really good with words -- I'd suggest you parse the phrase "so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians" and get back to me.
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QuirtEvans
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ivorythumper
Oct 5 2008, 11:37 AM
Quirt: you are repeating yourself. I already quoted the significant part of that AP statement. Your source can be as neutral and respected as a Swiss diplomat and still make a logical error.

You seem to miss the point that regardless of whether we did inadvertently kill civilians, in fact even if we inadvertently killed more civilians that the enemy did, even if we agree for the sake of this discussion that those are the "facts", that say absolutely nothing to support Obama's position that as a matter of course we are air raiding villages and killing civilians and NOT killing the enemy.

You are usually really good with words -- I'd suggest you parse the phrase "so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians" and get back to me.

You can parse it as well as I can.

"Just" air-raiding villages ... insufficient ground presence.

"and killing civilians" ... an almost unavoidable consequence of air raids on villages.

The word "just" doesn't have to be transitive ... it doesn't have to apply to the phrase "killing civilians". It clearly applies to the air raids, but not necessarily to the killing civilians. We could be killing civilians and the enemy. It's ambiguous from a linguistic perspective.

For Obama to be wrong, you'd have to show that we'd been doing more than "just" air-raiding villages, at the time he said it.

Or, you have to be able to prove that the word "just" was intended to be transitive. Which you cannot do.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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QuirtEvans
Oct 5 2008, 09:43 AM
ivorythumper
Oct 5 2008, 11:37 AM
Quirt: you are repeating yourself. I already quoted the significant part of that AP statement. Your source can be as neutral and respected as a Swiss diplomat and still make a logical error.

You seem to miss the point that regardless of whether we did inadvertently kill civilians, in fact even if we inadvertently killed more civilians that the enemy did, even if we agree for the sake of this discussion that those are the "facts", that say absolutely nothing to support Obama's position that as a matter of course we are air raiding villages and killing civilians and NOT killing the enemy.

You are usually really good with words -- I'd suggest you parse the phrase "so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians" and get back to me.

You can parse it as well as I can.

"Just" air-raiding villages ... insufficient ground presence.

"and killing civilians" ... an almost unavoidable consequence of air raids on villages.

The word "just" doesn't have to be transitive ... it doesn't have to apply to the phrase "killing civilians". It clearly applies to the air raids, but not necessarily to the killing civilians. We could be killing civilians and the enemy. It's ambiguous from a linguistic perspective.

For Obama to be wrong, you'd have to show that we'd been doing more than "just" air-raiding villages, at the time he said it.

Or, you have to be able to prove that the word "just" was intended to be transitive. Which you cannot do.

Perhaps you and he are equally unaware that most air raids in modern warfare including Afghanistan are close support which are intended to assist the troops on the ground.

I don't mind if you are unaware of that fact, but I certainly don't want someone who presumes to be CiC to be ignorant of modern warfare.
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QuirtEvans
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ivorythumper
Oct 5 2008, 11:51 AM
QuirtEvans
Oct 5 2008, 09:43 AM
ivorythumper
Oct 5 2008, 11:37 AM
Quirt: you are repeating yourself. I already quoted the significant part of that AP statement. Your source can be as neutral and respected as a Swiss diplomat and still make a logical error.

You seem to miss the point that regardless of whether we did inadvertently kill civilians, in fact even if we inadvertently killed more civilians that the enemy did, even if we agree for the sake of this discussion that those are the "facts", that say absolutely nothing to support Obama's position that as a matter of course we are air raiding villages and killing civilians and NOT killing the enemy.

You are usually really good with words -- I'd suggest you parse the phrase "so that we're not just air-raiding villages and killing civilians" and get back to me.

You can parse it as well as I can.

"Just" air-raiding villages ... insufficient ground presence.

"and killing civilians" ... an almost unavoidable consequence of air raids on villages.

The word "just" doesn't have to be transitive ... it doesn't have to apply to the phrase "killing civilians". It clearly applies to the air raids, but not necessarily to the killing civilians. We could be killing civilians and the enemy. It's ambiguous from a linguistic perspective.

For Obama to be wrong, you'd have to show that we'd been doing more than "just" air-raiding villages, at the time he said it.

Or, you have to be able to prove that the word "just" was intended to be transitive. Which you cannot do.

Perhaps you and he are equally unaware that most air raids in modern warfare including Afghanistan are close support which are intended to assist the troops on the ground.

I don't mind if you are unaware of that fact, but I certainly don't want someone who presumes to be CiC to be ignorant of modern warfare.

Got facts to support that that was what was happening in Afghanistan?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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Do you really want to go there?

Just a tidbit from Global Security
Quote:
 
General Votel said that in a "normal week," his forces are involved in some 10-20 "incidents" along the 570-mile stretch of border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which they patrol. He said the length of the border and the extremely rugged terrain in the region mean no one really knows how many illicit incursions into Afghanistan go undetected.

General Votel said the mainly U.S. forces in the area are braced for further insurgent movements across the border as military operations on the Pakistani side of the border continue. He said his troops are in "near real-time" tactical contact with Pakistani units across the border.


Those are GROUND TROOPS, Quirt. And that quote -- from early August 2007 was three weeks before Obama said we were JUST AIR RAIDING VILLAGES.


Here's another one -- a week before Obama defamed our troops


Quote:
 
The U.S. command in eastern Afghanistan is confirming that U.S. and Afghan forces are conducting an offensive against insurgents in the rugged Tora Bora region. VOA's Al Pessin reports from the Pentagon.

A spokeswoman for the coalition task force in the region says the operation involves several hundred U.S. and Afghan troops and has been going on for a few days. Captain Vanessa Bowman says the force is targeting insurgent support bases and training sites near the Afghan-Pakistan border.


Maybe Gryphon would like to drop in for this discussion as well.

You're going to have to find another meaning of JUST to hold your position.
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QuirtEvans
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ivorythumper
Oct 5 2008, 12:30 PM
Do you really want to go there?

Just a tidbit from Global Security
Quote:
 
General Votel said that in a "normal week," his forces are involved in some 10-20 "incidents" along the 570-mile stretch of border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which they patrol. He said the length of the border and the extremely rugged terrain in the region mean no one really knows how many illicit incursions into Afghanistan go undetected.

General Votel said the mainly U.S. forces in the area are braced for further insurgent movements across the border as military operations on the Pakistani side of the border continue. He said his troops are in "near real-time" tactical contact with Pakistani units across the border.


Those are GROUND TROOPS, Quirt. And that quote -- from early August 2007 was three weeks before Obama said we were JUST AIR RAIDING VILLAGES.


Here's another one -- a week before Obama defamed our troops


Quote:
 
The U.S. command in eastern Afghanistan is confirming that U.S. and Afghan forces are conducting an offensive against insurgents in the rugged Tora Bora region. VOA's Al Pessin reports from the Pentagon.

A spokeswoman for the coalition task force in the region says the operation involves several hundred U.S. and Afghan troops and has been going on for a few days. Captain Vanessa Bowman says the force is targeting insurgent support bases and training sites near the Afghan-Pakistan border.


Maybe Gryphon would like to drop in for this discussion as well.

You're going to have to find another meaning of JUST to hold your position.

I love how you cherry pick your quotes.

Perhaps you missed the heading of that first passage. Let me quote it:

Quote:
 
Border Patrols


Doesn't quite sound like offensive missions, does it?

Do you really think you patrol the border with air strikes? Air surveillance, perhaps ... air strikes, no.

Maybe you'd better get another lesson on modern warfare.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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It is slanderous to suggest that we are employing aerial bombardment without close ground support. In a counter-insurgency situation it is ignorant as well.

It says a lot about someone's view of the military in general when they would require proof that we are not carpet bombing villages in Afghanistan.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Oct 5 2008, 10:39 AM
ivorythumper
Oct 5 2008, 12:30 PM
Do you really want to go there?

Just a tidbit from Global Security
Quote:
 
General Votel said that in a "normal week," his forces are involved in some 10-20 "incidents" along the 570-mile stretch of border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which they patrol. He said the length of the border and the extremely rugged terrain in the region mean no one really knows how many illicit incursions into Afghanistan go undetected.

General Votel said the mainly U.S. forces in the area are braced for further insurgent movements across the border as military operations on the Pakistani side of the border continue. He said his troops are in "near real-time" tactical contact with Pakistani units across the border.


Those are GROUND TROOPS, Quirt. And that quote -- from early August 2007 was three weeks before Obama said we were JUST AIR RAIDING VILLAGES.


Here's another one -- a week before Obama defamed our troops


Quote:
 
The U.S. command in eastern Afghanistan is confirming that U.S. and Afghan forces are conducting an offensive against insurgents in the rugged Tora Bora region. VOA's Al Pessin reports from the Pentagon.

A spokeswoman for the coalition task force in the region says the operation involves several hundred U.S. and Afghan troops and has been going on for a few days. Captain Vanessa Bowman says the force is targeting insurgent support bases and training sites near the Afghan-Pakistan border.


Maybe Gryphon would like to drop in for this discussion as well.

You're going to have to find another meaning of JUST to hold your position.

I love how you cherry pick your quotes.

Perhaps you missed the heading of that first passage. Let me quote it:

Quote:
 
Border Patrols


Doesn't quite sound like offensive missions, does it?

Do you really think you patrol the border with air strikes? Air surveillance, perhaps ... air strikes, no.

Maybe you'd better get another lesson on modern warfare.

The notion of that it has to be an "offensive" campaign is your own feeble attempt to save your position that it was Palin who lied and not Obama. But even given that, you are the one cherry picking quotes, Quirt. Here, let me help you with that reading comprehension:

[size=14]The U.S. command in eastern Afghanistan is confirming that U.S. and Afghan forces are conducting an offensive [/size]against insurgents in the rugged Tora Bora region. VOA's Al Pessin reports from the Pentagon.

Does that sound more like an offensive mission to you? A week or two before Obama said we were JUST AIR-RAIDING VILLAGES AND KILLING CIVILIANS.

As for lessons in modern warfare, you are way out of your depth if you think the choice is between bombing villages and air surveillance. SOP includes aerial tactical support. You might not know that, but Obama should if he thinks he has any business being CiC.

Regardless, you now have admitted that the US ground forces are doing more than JUST AIR-RAIDING VILLAGES AND KILLING CIVILIANS.. Border patrols qualify for more that JUST AIR-RAIDING VILLAGES.

Obama is the one who lied here, Quirt. Why you want to go to the wall to defend that outrageous claim is beyond me.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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Quote:
 
you now have admitted that the US ground forces are doing more than JUST AIR-RAIDING VILLAGES AND KILLING CIVILIANS.


You keep attaching that "just" to killing civilians. I've explained to you that it isn't necessarily transitive. It is of course in your interest to pretend that it is, but that isn't a fair reading.

If it helps your reading comprehension, add "thereby" after and.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Oct 5 2008, 03:20 PM
Quote:
 
you now have admitted that the US ground forces are doing more than JUST AIR-RAIDING VILLAGES AND KILLING CIVILIANS.


You keep attaching that "just" to killing civilians. I've explained to you that it isn't necessarily transitive. It is of course in your interest to pretend that it is, but that isn't a fair reading.

If it helps your reading comprehension, add "thereby" after and.

It does not matter if "just" is attached to "KILLING CIVILIANS" or not.

Even if for the sake of argument I accept your reading of it, BORDER PATROLS still qualifies as more than JUST AIR-RAIDING, in addition to the fact that you have chosen to ignore the OFFENSIVE involving "several hundred U.S. and Afghan troops".

I don't see how you can keep supporting Obama in that lie.

I realize WHY you have to support Obama in that lie, but I don't see how you can do so in good conscience.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Here's another one Quirt -- from a couple days before Obama lied about the troops

Quote:
 
Afghan, Coalition Forces Detain Suspected Militants


American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Aug. 24, 2007 – One militant was killed and 11 men were detained for questioning following an operation in Afghanistan’s Nangarhar province today.

The insurgent was killed while attempting to engage coalition and Afghan forces. The detainees will be questioned as to their involvement in militant activities, officials said.

Intelligence reports led coalition forces to compounds in the Sherzad district that are suspected of providing sanctuary to an enemy facilitator. Multiple weapons, including a machine gun, ammunition vests, six rocket-propelled grenades, two grenades, a bag of explosive propellant, mortar fuses and 21 landmines were found during a search of the compounds. The items were destroyed in place, causing some structural damage to the barn where they were hidden.

"Militants who maintain a weapons cache like this one intend to bring destruction and disrupt the peace within the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan," said Army Capt. Vanessa R. Bowman, a Combined Joint Task Force 82 spokeswoman.

Also today, Afghan and coalition forces detained two militants and killed another during an operation in Khowst province.

Intelligence reports led coalition forces to a compound in the Mando Zayi district. One suspected militant was shot and killed during the course of operation when he reached for a weapon; the other two were detained.

En route to the location, coalition forces fired shots in self-defense, and the ricochet rounds wounded a bystander. He was treated for minor injuries by coalition forces, but did not require additional medical attention.

“Afghan national security forces continue to work relentlessly against anti-coalition militants who endanger civilians and the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan,” Bowman said.

In operations yesterday, Afghan national security forces advised by coalition forces detained seven suspected insurgents during an operation near Kandahar City.

Intelligence reports led Afghan and coalition forces to a compound suspected of housing the militants. One of the detainees is suspected of being a major Taliban bomb maker in the city.

"The apprehension of these insurgents will go a long way towards disrupting the enemies of peace and stability during their on-going assassination and terror campaign against (the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan) and (Afghan national security force) officials," Bowman said. "Today's operation removed a high-level individual who has taken part in the command and control of the insurgent (improvised-explosive-device) network that facilitates attacks which target, kill and maim innocent Afghans."

(Compiled from Combined Joint Task Force 82 news release.)


I even emboldened some things to help you with your reading comprehension so you'll know what's on the test. (and you might want to study up on the various Airborne and Mountain Division troops that are under the Combined Joint Task Force 82 who assist in the coalition before trying to argue that it doesn't specify US troops.)

So how did they get to discover and find on the ground a cache of weapons if they were "just air-raiding"?????

How did they manage to detain two militants if they were not on the ground doing operations?

How could they have known that the guy was reaching for his weapon unless they were there to witness it?

Surely a clever guy like you can figure out a way to save Obama's position such that Palin would be the liar you claim her to be, and not Obama as it seems the facts bear out.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jack Frost
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JBryan
Oct 5 2008, 12:46 PM


It says a lot about someone's view of the military in general when they would require proof that we are not carpet bombing villages in Afghanistan.

I hope you are right.

It DID happen in Vietnam.

jf
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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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