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losing patience
Topic Started: Jul 17 2008, 01:20 PM (587 Views)
pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
I seem to be a lot less patient than I used to be, most distressingly with the piano. I find that I can't generally sit and practice for longer than a few minutes at a time; just a few years ago, I could often sit for 3-5 hours at a time, and then be itching to get back later. My family used to complain, when I was home during summers, that I'd play all day long when I wasn't out working. I don't think it's that I'm really so much less interested than I was before; I just get frustrated more easily, and lose patience very quickly. In fact, if I'd really lost interest, then I wouldn't be so worried about it -- and that's what's most frustrating, is that I seem to have no patience to do what I want very much to do.

In general, I'm pretty apathetic the last couple years about things that used to be (and still are?) so important to me.

:shrug:
Sam
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Try a change up of some sort.

Give yourself something to do at the piano other than work on the pieces you're trying to learn.

I'm doing an hour a day of sight reading. Its a very welcome break from my normal practice (and vice versa).
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm going to wait this one out and and see what Kenny says first. He usually has a pithy and insightful analysis. I'll build on whatever he says.
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
Remember that every piano player will go through this. I call it starting and stopping...although it really isn't stopping.

I have found that if I chill out on the praticing side and almost stop for a week or two, I'll come back to the piano and have made progress. Wierd, huh? I think that sometimes our bodies need a break to build nerve pathways...rest the ol' brain synapses...and give the fingers and tendons a little R&R. When the inspiration returns you'll be surprisingly ready.

Just don't start beating yourself up over it....you're a bad-ass already.


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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
Quote:
 
I seem to be a lot less patient than I used to be, most distressingly with the piano. I find that I can't generally sit and practice for longer than a few minutes at a time. . .


You're in heat. :)
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think part of the problem is that I haven't been entirely satisfied with my teacher, which is a huge let down.

When I was in high school, we had a job shadowing program at school -- tell the counselor what you want to be when you grow up, and she'll find someone for you to shadow for a day during junior year. Of course when I told her "concert pianist", it took her a year, but she found this guy who is now my teacher. I remember how excited I was to meet him, and what a great day that was.

I didn't get into music school right away, so I couldn't study with him my first year. I had a *great* teacher who was a doctoral student, but then whole time my goal was to find a way to study with the professor.

The next year, I got into his studio. I remember how excited I was that first day when I was sitting in his studio to sign up for a lesson time, that very first lesson when it seemed like this was the perfect match.

Part of the problem is that it's not the man I don't like -- he's an incredible person, and we get along very well. But his teaching style and my learning style haven't quite matched up, which has been extremely frustrating for both of us. Last year, most of my lessons ended up being only 20-40 minutes, while I'm supposed to be getting 60 minutes, because his expectations were so much higher than what I could do; he didn't want to help me with what I really need help with, which is technique and learning process. He expected that I should know all of that on my own, so then he can work entirely on interpretation. And since I didn't know all of that on my own, it was very difficult to work on the interpretation, because technique got in the way.

He also expected that I should learn very quickly, and I suppose I should thank him for pushing me so hard, because I do learn much more quickly now. And maybe that, too, is part of my frustration -- if I can't learn something quickly, then I get frustrated with it. He refused to listen to anything unless I could play the whole thing -- which meant that I could never play any challenge piece that I really wanted to learn, because there's no way I could learn even half of it decently in one week (remember when I tried to learn the Mendelssohn Variations???) So I was stuck with smaller pieces, but even those I had trouble learning well enough in one week; and when I'd finally have something ready by working extra hard for weeks, he'd listen to it, make a few comments maybe, and then say "OK, so what else have you got?" :dead:

So it's a huge let down, but I don't quite know what to do about it. I've been his student for 2 years, and I have 2 years left at the school. It's not like he's some private teacher whose house I go to; I'll still see him around school, which would be hard if I switched teachers. But I also don't really know if I could switch teachers at this point -- there's one in particular that I'd love to study with from meeting him and from what I've heard of his teaching style (big focus on technique which is exactly what I need; he was always my 2nd choice), but I'm worried that even if I *could* switch teachers, who knows, maybe it wouldn't work out either.

And also, I feel that my teacher has put so much into our teacher-student relationship already, and so I wouldn't want to let him down either. I'm sure if I told him everything I just wrote here, he'd be more than supportive. But it would be so hard for me to do that.

:shrug:
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Getting drunk should help.
(That was for R2) :P
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Of course, the result of all that is that I've been at music school for three years now, and how much have I improved at the piano?

I look around me, and see what everyone else is doing, and I'm not even close. Of course that shouldn't be my meter, I suppose, but that was my dream. And it's slipping away.
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
What do you want?
Is your goal to earn a living as a concert pianist?
Teaching?
Composing?
Or is it just the music itself?
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George K
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Finally
pianojerome
Jul 17 2008, 10:25 PM
Of course, the result of all that is that I've been at music school for three years now, and how much have I improved at the piano?

I look around me, and see what everyone else is doing, and I'm not even close.

Oh, no, Sam, you are so wrong. I remember hearing a recording you made of the Bach fugue in C-minor (book 1 WTC) back in, what was it, 2005? It was good, but rough. You're a spectacularly better pianist now. You have no idea. I'd give my right, er, thumb to play like you do.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
pianojerome
Jul 17 2008, 07:16 PM
He also expected that I should learn very quickly, and I suppose I should thank him for pushing me so hard, because I do learn much more quickly now.

Is that just the product of gradual skill accrual or did he pass on some tips and tricks that helped you and that you could pass on to us?
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Sam, you're paying for all this, right? You do have a right to have some expectations from those instructing you. If what you are paying for now is not working for you, move on. A professional should understand, and appreciate that. And I think it is perfectly understandable that someone you job shadowed in high school is not the person you need any more. You've grown.
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Jul 17 2008, 07:24 PM
Getting drunk should help.
(That was for R2) :P

Took you a while to show up, Kenny, but thanks.

I think, PJ, as you talk about it, you'll answer your own question.

I know how you feel, by the way. I'm obviously not in school for piano, but I am studying with a high-level teacher and I often feel like I'm gasping for air. But, like you, I'm playing better now than I thought I would be. A lot better.

I dunno, is there anyone's opinion that you trust at school?
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
pianojerome
Jul 17 2008, 07:16 PM
I think part of the problem is that I haven't been entirely satisfied with my teacher, which is a huge let down.

When I was in high school, we had a job shadowing program at school -- tell the counselor what you want to be when you grow up, and she'll find someone for you to shadow for a day during junior year.  Of course when I told her "concert pianist", it took her a year, but she found this guy who is now my teacher.  I remember how excited I was to meet him, and what a great day that was.

I didn't get into music school right away, so I couldn't study with him my first year.  I had a *great* teacher who was a doctoral student, but then whole time my goal was to find a way to study with the professor.

The next year, I got into his studio.  I remember how excited I was that first day when I was sitting in his studio to sign up for a lesson time, that very first lesson when it seemed like this was the perfect match.

Part of the problem is that it's not the man I don't like -- he's an incredible person, and we get along very well.  But his teaching style and my learning style haven't quite matched up, which has been extremely frustrating for both of us.  Last year, most of my lessons ended up being only 20-40 minutes, while I'm supposed to be getting 60 minutes, because his expectations were so much higher than what I could do; he didn't want to help me with what I really need help with, which is technique and learning process.  He expected that I should know all of that on my own, so then he can work entirely on interpretation.  And since I didn't know all of that on my own, it was very difficult to work on the interpretation, because technique got in the way.

He also expected that I should learn very quickly, and I suppose I should thank him for pushing me so hard, because I do learn much more quickly now.  And maybe that, too, is part of my frustration -- if I can't learn something quickly, then I get frustrated with it.  He refused to listen to anything unless I could play the whole thing -- which meant that I could never play any challenge piece that I really wanted to learn, because there's no way I could learn even half of it decently in one week (remember when I tried to learn the Mendelssohn Variations???)  So I was stuck with smaller pieces, but even those I had trouble learning well enough in one week; and when I'd finally have something ready by working extra hard for weeks, he'd listen to it, make a few comments maybe, and then say "OK, so what else have you got?"  :dead:

So it's a huge let down, but I don't quite know what to do about it.  I've been his student for 2 years, and I have 2 years left at the school.  It's not like he's some private teacher whose house I go to; I'll still see him around school, which would be hard if I switched teachers.  But I also don't really know if I could switch teachers at this point -- there's one in particular that I'd love to study with from meeting him and from what I've heard of his teaching style (big focus on technique which is exactly what I need; he was always my 2nd choice), but I'm worried that even if I *could* switch teachers, who knows, maybe it wouldn't work out either.

And also, I feel that my teacher has put so much into our teacher-student relationship already, and so I wouldn't want to let him down either.  I'm sure if I told him everything I just wrote here, he'd be more than supportive.  But it would be so hard for me to do that.

:shrug:

Sam, print your post out and hand it to him.

This is your life.

Which will you do?
1. Get the teacher you need, which may disappoint the old one.
2. Hurt yourself by staying with the wrong teacher so you don't hurt his feelings.

Do what's best for YOU, not your teacher.

Teachers are paid professionals.
It is their job to accept these things and move on.

You are paying to be in school.
He's is getting paid to be there.
That makes you the boss.
He is your employee.
As the boss you must do what is best for the business.
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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
You are paying to be in school.
He's is getting paid to be there.
That makes you the boss.
He is your employee.

The above may help your perspective Sam, but if it is reflected in your attitude towards your teacher, it's bad advice IMO.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Thanks for all of the advice and support.

It's so hard for me because this is such a personal thing, and there's a lot riding on it. I'm thinking, actually, of not doing any piano lessons at all in the fall -- it will take off a lot of pressure, so I'll be able to take my time learning the pieces that I want to learn, and not feel like I have to do so much every week. I've already fulfilled my degree requirements for piano lessons, and maybe it would be good to take a break for a while. Actually, I find that I don't get as much done during the summer when I don't have that guidance from a teacher -- on the other hand, there are a lot of other reasons why I don't get as much done during the summer, too!

Or maybe I should take lessons anyway. I don't know. I have to play with an ensemble, so I think I might try out for an early music chorus. That would be fun! I'm already registered for a musicology course on renaissance music, and a theory course on 16th/17th centuries counterpoint, so that would be a great opportunity to put into practice what I'm learning in theory/musicology!

I guess I'll talk with my teacher about all of this, too -- it's the most responsible, and sensible, thing to do.
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I agree with Rainman.

If you take control and change teachers you have to walk a fine line.
You must appear respectful and not arrogant, yet resolved.
Do not burn bridges.
Express your deep respect for your current teacher, but the fit is not meeting your needs.

If it gets tense and emotional take the lead and speak slowly and calmly.
Be sincere, you have a valid point.

If they balk I'd just keep repeating things like, But I'm concerned for my future . . .
Describe the problem that they get to solve.
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George K
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Finally
Kenny, you've given great advice here.

Just sayin....
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Jul 17 2008, 05:35 PM
Try a change up of some sort.

Give yourself something to do at the piano other than work on the pieces you're trying to learn.

I'm doing an hour a day of sight reading.  Its a very welcome break from my normal practice (and vice versa).

Good idea, I've been practicing some of the Clementi Sonatinas today and yesterday, and I'm hooked! He was actually a pretty good composer -- these aren't "great art" in the same league as Beethoven's sonatas, just student pieces but pretty neat student pieces.

I also took out my old book of Pischna exercises, and they're much easier than I remember them being 4 years ago.... but some are still a big pain (literally)! Doing them in every key takes a bit of time.
Sam
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
Jul 18 2008, 01:15 AM
pianojerome
Jul 17 2008, 07:16 PM
He also expected that I should learn very quickly, and I suppose I should thank him for pushing me so hard, because I do learn much more quickly now.

Is that just the product of gradual skill accrual or did he pass on some tips and tricks that helped you and that you could pass on to us?

I think it's partly natural progress, pushed by the pressure of having to learn music very quickly for lessons. Theory has also helped a lot, because the music tends to make much more sense now, and so it's not just practicing pushing random keys. That's been a big focus of my teacher -- he always asks what key I'm in here or there, and when I hit a wrong note, he says "you wouldn't make that mistake if you were using your ear! Use your ear!" IOW it's important to hear where the music is going, to hear it moving towards the note that you're about to play (not that you should hear it before you play it, because you should hear what you are playing at the moment, but you should anticipate it and know that it is coming). Also, to know the theory context so that you wouldn't play a note that obviously doesn't make sense to play.

So a big part of it is him + 4 semesters of written/aural theory. I think that's a big part of why the Clementi is so much fun, and this 20th century music I've been practicing has been so frustrating -- because the Clementi is so easy for me to understand theoretically, and the others are much more complicated! (Clementi is also much easier to play....) I also took 2 semesters of a sight-reading course a few years ago, and got a C+ first semester and a B+ second semester, so I'm still not a stellar sight-reader, but that did help a ton. Learning how to sightread (and practicing it) is so valuable, because it doesn't just help the first time you play a piece -- it helps every single time you sit down to play something from the score, whether for the first time or the hundredth time, whether the entire piece or just a small section.

He also taught me some good practice methods -- to sit down and figure out exactly what needs to be practiced (down to the note), and then practice it over and over, not until I can play it right once, but until I can play it right a bunch of times. That gets rid of mistakes before they become ingrained in my memory, and it also helps to get rid of others that have already been engrained. I used to read a lot, too, in my first couple years, books by Neuhaus and Hoffman and Sandor that said basically the same thing, but in much more words. He also taught me how to listen to myself while I play, which helps a lot, because I used to not hear a lot of my mistakes (notes, dynamics, phrasing, tempo, etc), and it's kind of hard to fix something that you don't know needs to be fixed!
Sam
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Quote:
 
Good idea, I've been practicing some of the Clementi Sonatinas today and yesterday, and I'm hooked!


Cool. My daily routine has been:

- 2 Bach Chorales
- One Scarlatti Sonata
- One movement from an LvB Sonata.

I'm about done with the slower movements of the LvB Sonatas. (did Op 110 in full yesterday and today, tomorrow I'll do the 2nd mvmt of the 111.)

Monday in addition to the Bach and Scarlatti I'll start plowing through Chopin - a Mazurka a day should last through the end of the summer.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
:thumb:
Sam
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
That's great advice, thanks Sam. I agree that theory can help so much in learning a piece - I'm trying to really think about which key I'm in and what chords I'm playing but it's hard to shift focus to that, from just trying to play the right notes. Seems like piano playing is like climbing a mountain and when you think you're making good progress you see that you're only climbing a foothill of a much bigger mountain...

I think piano takes so long to learn because you have to teach your lizard brain everything - all the theory and sight reading skill etc has to be so ingrained that it is literally instinctive. I can figure things out 'academically' but my lizard brain is pretty slow.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Jul 19 2008, 11:42 AM
Quote:
 
Good idea, I've been practicing some of the Clementi Sonatinas today and yesterday, and I'm hooked!


Cool. My daily routine has been:

- 2 Bach Chorales
- One Scarlatti Sonata
- One movement from an LvB Sonata.

I'm about done with the slower movements of the LvB Sonatas. (did Op 110 in full yesterday and today, tomorrow I'll do the 2nd mvmt of the 111.)

Monday in addition to the Bach and Scarlatti I'll start plowing through Chopin - a Mazurka a day should last through the end of the summer.

Slow down, after you learn the entire repertoire, you'll have to abandon piano and learn a new instrument, like bagpipes. That will be a dark day for all involved.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
Jul 19 2008, 12:57 PM
That's great advice, thanks Sam. I agree that theory can help so much in learning a piece - I'm trying to really think about which key I'm in and what chords I'm playing but it's hard to shift focus to that, from just trying to play the right notes. Seems like piano playing is like climbing a mountain and when you think you're making good progress you see that you're only climbing a foothill of a much bigger mountain...

I think piano takes so long to learn because you have to teach your lizard brain everything - all the theory and sight reading skill etc has to be so ingrained that it is literally instinctive. I can figure things out 'academically' but my lizard brain is pretty slow.

True dat.

10,000 hours is all it takes.
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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