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Abstinence programmes in US; For teens
Topic Started: Apr 26 2008, 09:02 AM (1,743 Views)
Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Jolly
Apr 29 2008, 09:38 AM
Quote:
 
Doesn't always work


Nothing works all the time in human relations.

I think much of what we are talking about here is emphasis.

Well it does seem kind of contradictory to say "don't do this..... but if you do, do it this way," but I would hope that there's some sort of a way to present kids with both.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Personally, I support funding for research on a drug that would keep them impotent until 18.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Our third graders are being forced to put all their school supplies into a common pot so that all the kids end up with the same amout - Socialism. They're pushing to have the words "father" and "mother" eliminated because it might offend kids who have two mommies


I can't speak for schools in general, but none of that happens in our school.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Luke's Dad
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Aqua Letifer
Apr 29 2008, 01:42 PM
Jolly
Apr 29 2008, 09:38 AM
Quote:
 
Doesn't always work


Nothing works all the time in human relations.

I think much of what we are talking about here is emphasis.

Well it does seem kind of contradictory to say "don't do this..... but if you do, do it this way," but I would hope that there's some sort of a way to present kids with both.

While it is contradictory at first glance, it doesn't necessarily mean anything if the parents have done their jobs with educating their own children and helping them learn respect/morals/ethics/etc... It bothers me somewhat that the message in the schools can be contradictory, but I think with M&M's and my work, Luke will be just fine. The problem comes in with all of the parents that don't instill any sense of virtues and responsibility into their children; and unfortunately, those kids vastly outnumber the kids that are being taught about maturity, decisions, and how those decisions can impact one's life. All these kids have to go on is pop culture, peers, and school.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 12:49 PM
Quote:
 
Our third graders are being forced to put all their school supplies into a common pot so that all the kids end up with the same amout - Socialism. They're pushing to have the words "father" and "mother" eliminated because it might offend kids who have two mommies


I can't speak for schools in general, but none of that happens in our school.

With respect to forced sharing of school supplies, this is the only thing I found in a brief look on Google:

http://www.huffenglish.com/?p=160

I can tell you that, if I got that sort of note, I'd be talking to the principal about it.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Here's an article about what to expect in the third grade:

http://www.education.com/magazine/article/Third_Grade_Read/

It doesn't mention sex ed.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Luke's Dad
Apr 29 2008, 11:46 AM
Personally, I support funding for research on a drug that would keep them impotent until 18.

Great, then they have a lot less to worry about if they know they are firing blanks.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Luke's Dad
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JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 03:19 PM
Luke's Dad
Apr 29 2008, 11:46 AM
Personally, I support funding for research on a drug that would keep them impotent until 18.

Great, then they have a lot less to worry about if they know they are firing blanks.

From Merriam's:

Quote:
 
Main Entry: im·po·tent 
Pronunciation: \ˈim-pə-tənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin impotent-, impotens, from in- + potent-, potens potent
Date: 14th century
1 a: not potent : lacking in power, strength, or vigor : helpless b: unable to engage in sexual intercourse because of inability to have and maintain an erection;


Hard to shoot a blank when you can't even cock the hammer.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Luke's Dad
Apr 29 2008, 02:25 PM
JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 03:19 PM
Luke's Dad
Apr 29 2008, 11:46 AM
Personally, I support funding for research on a drug that would keep them impotent until 18.

Great, then they have a lot less to worry about if they know they are firing blanks.

From Merriam's:

Quote:
 
Main Entry: im·po·tent 
Pronunciation: \ˈim-pə-tənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin impotent-, impotens, from in- + potent-, potens potent
Date: 14th century
1 a: not potent : lacking in power, strength, or vigor : helpless b: unable to engage in sexual intercourse because of inability to have and maintain an erection;


Hard to shoot a blank when you can't even cock the hammer.

Perhaps not the most apt expression in this instance. :rolleyes:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Apr 29 2008, 08:41 AM
This has nothing to do with abstinence programs, but we were at the dinner table the other night, and we were discussing what had happened in the girls' days at school. Sixteen currently has a Health class that is, for at least the third or fourth time, going over the essentials of human sexuality. We were all laughing so hard we almost couldn't finish dinner after she told us that the boy who sits next to her had announced to the class that he'd shaved the Nike Swoosh into his pubes. :lol:

I see you are cultivating them in the gentle art of dinner conversation. :P
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Luke's Dad
Apr 29 2008, 01:25 PM
JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 03:19 PM
Luke's Dad
Apr 29 2008, 11:46 AM
Personally, I support funding for research on a drug that would keep them impotent until 18.

Great, then they have a lot less to worry about if they know they are firing blanks.

From Merriam's:

Quote:
 
Main Entry: im·po·tent 
Pronunciation: \ˈim-pə-tənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin impotent-, impotens, from in- + potent-, potens potent
Date: 14th century
1 a: not potent : lacking in power, strength, or vigor : helpless b: unable to engage in sexual intercourse because of inability to have and maintain an erection;


Hard to shoot a blank when you can't even cock the hammer.

Duct tape can fix anything...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:
 
According to a report in the journal Sexually Transmitted Diseases, the majority of 158 heterosexual male subjects at Indiana University surveyed over a three-month period had difficulties in using prophylactics:

* 74 percent didn't check the condom for visible damage.

* 61 percent didn't check the expiration date.

* 60 percent didn't discuss condom use with their partners.

* 43 percent put the condom on after starting sex.

* 40 percent didn't leave a space at the tip (which can lead to breakage).

* 32 percent reported sexual dysfunction because of the condom.

* 30 percent initially placed the condom on the penis upside down, then flipped it over instead of replacing it.

* 29 percent reported breakage.

* 15 percent removed the condom before sex was over.

* 13 percent reported that the condom slipped off during sex.


Can't imagine how bad it would be if we hadn't had 25 years of safe sex teaching.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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ivorythumper
Apr 29 2008, 02:57 PM
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:
 
According to a report in the journal Sexually Transmitted Diseases, the majority of 158 heterosexual male subjects at Indiana University surveyed over a three-month period had difficulties in using prophylactics:

* 74 percent didn't check the condom for visible damage.

* 61 percent didn't check the expiration date.

* 60 percent didn't discuss condom use with their partners.

* 43 percent put the condom on after starting sex.

* 40 percent didn't leave a space at the tip (which can lead to breakage).

* 32 percent reported sexual dysfunction because of the condom.

* 30 percent initially placed the condom on the penis upside down, then flipped it over instead of replacing it.

* 29 percent reported breakage.

* 15 percent removed the condom before sex was over.

* 13 percent reported that the condom slipped off during sex.


Can't imagine how bad it would be if we hadn't had 25 years of safe sex teaching.

Yeah, today's teenagers really benefit from safe sex teaching of others before they were born. :rolleyes:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 12:58 PM
ivorythumper
Apr 29 2008, 02:57 PM
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:
 
According to a report in the journal Sexually Transmitted Diseases, the majority of 158 heterosexual male subjects at Indiana University surveyed over a three-month period had difficulties in using prophylactics:

* 74 percent didn't check the condom for visible damage.

* 61 percent didn't check the expiration date.

* 60 percent didn't discuss condom use with their partners.

* 43 percent put the condom on after starting sex.

* 40 percent didn't leave a space at the tip (which can lead to breakage).

* 32 percent reported sexual dysfunction because of the condom.

* 30 percent initially placed the condom on the penis upside down, then flipped it over instead of replacing it.

* 29 percent reported breakage.

* 15 percent removed the condom before sex was over.

* 13 percent reported that the condom slipped off during sex.


Can't imagine how bad it would be if we hadn't had 25 years of safe sex teaching.

Yeah, today's teenagers really benefit from safe sex teaching of others before they were born. :rolleyes:

Assuming abstinence only was even truly implemented (I am high skeptical of that), I take it you see that as yet another failing of Clinton's presidency? :P
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
You mentioned 25 years ago.

Who was President 25 years ago? Maybe you could remind me.

:P
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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LadyElton
Fulla-Carp
Any proof that kids are taught how to have gay sex in the 3rd grade? I remember being in the 4th or 5th grade and being taken along with the other girls into another room to learn about our periods. We learned what happens when we are menstrating, how much blood is lost, how to use a maxi pad (not tampons because of toxic shock syndrome) and about ovulation. Nothing about munching muff.

I learned about that on my own, thank you very much. :devilgrin: But not when I was a kid. It wasn't until after I was out of high school.

The book "Heather Has Two Mommies" is just about a girl who has 2 moms and they are still a family just like everyone else. Nothing sexual. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Also, I work at a mental health clinic whose clients are on welfare, well a majority of them. Yeah, I see people who leech off the system, but I also see people who desperately need it. I have friends who are on welfare so I take that dig personally.
Hilary aka LadyElton
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 01:07 PM
You mentioned 25 years ago. 

Who was President 25 years ago?  Maybe you could remind me. 

:P

I guess I am missing your point.

Modern sex education (condoms, etc) has been taught since the 70s (I should have said 35 years, not 25 years).

It is still the general curriculum. Abstinence only -- which is a Clinton era program -- is not federally mandated, it is a federal grant to programs that comply with special requirements. So any failing of abstinence only must be placed at the feet of Clinton, not Bush -- contrary to the article. But it is not even clear that the problems lie with abstinence only programs.

Contrary to your point, all of the students in the survey were born and educated in the era of modern sex ed.

My original point was that after decade of safe sex teaching, the stats you posted argue for the abysmal failure of modern sex education. Given that the survey group is collegiate men, assumed to be in the upper third or so of the population (only 28% of Americans get a bachelor's degree), those stats show the failure of modern sex ed. It is an indictment of the whole system, not abstinence only education.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Over the past 25 (or 35) years, were parents able to opt their children out of sex ed?

How many of them did so?

Perhaps its the parents' reluctance to let their kids participate in sex ed that leads to what ivorythumper deems a failure of the last 25 (or 35) years of sex ed.
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QuirtEvans
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ivorythumper
Apr 29 2008, 03:54 PM
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 01:07 PM
You mentioned 25 years ago. 

Who was President 25 years ago?  Maybe you could remind me. 

:P

I guess I am missing your point.

Modern sex education (condoms, etc) has been taught since the 70s (I should have said 35 years, not 25 years).

It is still the general curriculum. Abstinence only -- which is a Clinton era program -- is not federally mandated, it is a federal grant to programs that comply with special requirements. So any failing of abstinence only must be placed at the feet of Clinton, not Bush -- contrary to the article. But it is not even clear that the problems lie with abstinence only programs.

Contrary to your point, all of the students in the survey were born and educated in the era of modern sex ed.

My original point was that after decade of safe sex teaching, the stats you posted argue for the abysmal failure of modern sex education. Given that the survey group is collegiate men, assumed to be in the upper third or so of the population (only 28% of Americans get a bachelor's degree), those stats show the failure of modern sex ed. It is an indictment of the whole system, not abstinence only education.

Indeed, what it proves is that, when the subject is sex, you have an extraordinarily hard time getting a teenage male to pay attention. He's too busy fantasizing.

However, that doesn't mean that you stop doing it. You just figure out how to do it better.

Maybe a practical exam, like a driver's test.

:biggrin:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Apr 29 2008, 02:00 PM
Over the past 25 (or 35) years, were parents able to opt their children out of sex ed?

How many of them did so?

Perhaps its the parents' reluctance to let their kids participate in sex ed that leads to what ivorythumper deems a failure of the last 25 (or 35) years of sex ed.

What percentage of parents do you think really had their children opt out, Ax?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 02:03 PM


Maybe a practical exam, like a driver's test.

:biggrin:

:P Not oral exams? :leaving:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
LadyElton
Apr 29 2008, 01:22 PM
Also, I work at a mental health clinic whose clients are on welfare, well a majority of them. Yeah, I see people who leech off the system, but I also see people who desperately need it. I have friends who are on welfare so I take that dig personally.

I guess that's directed at me, I made a reference to welfare. Sorry. It wasn't necessary, I should have just said 'teenage high school dropout mums'
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Apr 29 2008, 02:14 PM
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 02:03 PM


Maybe a practical exam, like a driver's test. 

:biggrin:

:P Not oral exams? :leaving:

Oh gosh. Would they have to sport a big "L" for a year, then an "N" for another two? Hey, maybe that's not such a bad idea, might cool their jets just a tad. :biggrin:
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Apr 29 2008, 05:10 PM
Axtremus
Apr 29 2008, 02:00 PM
Over the past 25 (or 35) years, were parents able to opt their children out of sex ed?

How many of them did so?

Perhaps its the parents' reluctance to let their kids participate in sex ed that leads to what ivorythumper deems a failure of the last 25 (or 35) years of sex ed.

What percentage of parents do you think really had their children opt out, Ax?

I don't know, that's what I was hoping to find out (so far unsuccessfully).
Might you know the statistics?
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Apr 29 2008, 06:36 AM
Well, I think it was Churchill who said something like "however beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the result".

As you can see here, the US has 53 teenage births per 1000 women. The Netherlands 5 per 1000. That's less than 10% of the US rate.

As you may know, the Netherlands is the nightmare country of morally conservative people. The Red Light district in Amsterdam is famous in the whole world, and their prostitutes are organized in unions rather than being chased by the police. Pornographic images can be seen in all kinds of places all over the country, including TV, and they are not hidden from the kids. Kids learn about condoms, gays, and everything before they know the times table.

Yet... the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US. And it's not because of abortion - the abortion rate in The Netherlands is also way lower. I would even guess that kids in The Netherlands do on average wait longer before they have sex for the first time than the US. That's speculation, but the hard fact remains: the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US.

How do you explain that?

An indictment of liberalism!

Um, or not.

:P
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