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Abstinence programmes in US; For teens
Topic Started: Apr 26 2008, 09:02 AM (1,744 Views)
Luke's Dad
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Klaus
Apr 29 2008, 10:36 AM
Well, I think it was Churchill who said something like "however beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the result".

As you can see here, the US has 53 teenage births per 1000 women. The Netherlands 5 per 1000. That's less than 10% of the US rate.

As you may know, the Netherlands is the nightmare country of morally conservative people. The Red Light district in Amsterdam is famous in the whole world, and their prostitutes are organized in unions rather than being chased by the police. Pornographic images can be seen in all kinds of places all over the country, including TV, and they are not hidden from the kids. Kids learn about condoms, gays, and everything before they know the times table.

Yet... the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US. And it's not because of abortion - the abortion rate in The Netherlands is also way lower. I would even guess that kids in The Netherlands do on average wait longer before they have sex for the first time than the US. That's speculation, but the hard fact remains: the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US.

How do you explain that?

Men from the Netherlands are just less virile than men from the United States.











:P
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I wonder what is so complicated about a condom that you would have to teach anyone how to use one. There just is not a whole lot of different ways you can put it on. For those who find it not so intuitive I would suggest they are in for a rough time all the way around.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 09:59 AM
I wonder what is so complicated about a condom that you would have to teach anyone how to use one. There just is not a whole lot of different ways you can put it on. For those who find it not so intuitive I would suggest they are in for a rough time all the way around.

Ever watched a kid try to make toast, or put a DVD in a DVD player, or do the laundry for the first time? Those don't seem so complicated either, but they frequently screw it up when they are doing it for the first time, and they aren't anywhere near as nervous as they are when they are having sex for the first time. And the consequences of those first-time screw-ups are decidedly less important to their lives.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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Jesus to Jesus, Quirt! A kid would have to be a complete moron to not be able to figure that out. Making toast is rocket science next to figuring out which end you stick your dick in the thing.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 07:06 AM
Jesus to Jesus, Quirt! A kid would have to be a complete moron to not be able to figure that out. Making toast is rocket science next to figuring out which end you stick your dick in the thing.

:lol:

I heard that some hospitals give "walkthroughs" for parents to be. You know, show them what's going to happen when they enter the hospital, show them which procedures the mom's going to go through, etc.

I've also heard that it sounds like it's to give the mom an idea for what's going to happen, but really it's not necessary. It's all fairly self-explanatory. It's to make each one familiar with the process so they don't freak out when the Big Day comes.

This sort of thing sounds similar.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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QuirtEvans
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JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 10:06 AM
Jesus to Jesus, Quirt! A kid would have to be a complete moron to not be able to figure that out. Making toast is rocket science next to figuring out which end you stick your dick in the thing.

Really?

Quote:
 
According to a report in the journal Sexually Transmitted Diseases, the majority of 158 heterosexual male subjects at Indiana University surveyed over a three-month period had difficulties in using prophylactics:

* 74 percent didn't check the condom for visible damage.

* 61 percent didn't check the expiration date.

* 60 percent didn't discuss condom use with their partners.

* 43 percent put the condom on after starting sex.

* 40 percent didn't leave a space at the tip (which can lead to breakage).

* 32 percent reported sexual dysfunction because of the condom.

* 30 percent initially placed the condom on the penis upside down, then flipped it over instead of replacing it.

* 29 percent reported breakage.

* 15 percent removed the condom before sex was over.

* 13 percent reported that the condom slipped off during sex.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m160..._19/ai_96621171

Not that you didn't already know this, but the majority of teenagers are, in fact, complete morons.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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Quote:
 
"Teaching correct condom use can be quite involved and requires extensive, well-designed instruction," he says.

"[Using a condom] is a skill, and it requires knowledge and actual practice."


ROTFLMAO!
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 10:17 AM
Quote:
 
"Teaching correct condom use can be quite involved and requires extensive, well-designed instruction," he says.

"[Using a condom] is a skill, and it requires knowledge and actual practice."


ROTFLMAO!

Yeah, that's silly.

But, if a majority of college-age males get it wrong, do you really think that the average teenager will get it right?

I know the facts don't jive with what you thought they'd be ... time to adjust.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Quagmire
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JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 07:06 AM
Jesus to Jesus, Quirt! A kid would have to be a complete moron to not be able to figure that out. Making toast is rocket science next to figuring out which end you stick your dick in the thing.

Umm, you DONT stick your dick in the thing. You roll it down over your dick. Weren't you paying attention in class??


giggity giggity

(and dont forget to pinch the reservoir tip closed, kids. Keeps the air out which can cause problems later. We'll discuss that tomorrow).

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JBryan
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QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 09:20 AM
JBryan
Apr 29 2008, 10:17 AM
Quote:
 
"Teaching correct condom use can be quite involved and requires extensive, well-designed instruction," he says.

"[Using a condom] is a skill, and it requires knowledge and actual practice."


ROTFLMAO!

Yeah, that's silly.

But, if a majority of college-age males get it wrong, do you really think that the average teenager will get it right?

I know the facts don't jive with what you thought they'd be ... time to adjust.

All I can say is if this is true then kids are a whole lot more stupid than when I was growing up. I cannot think of a single instant in my life when I would not have been able to figure that one out and I suspect there are many more who could say the same. Of course, the biggest hurdle has never been knowing how to use one but wanting to in the first place.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
This has nothing to do with abstinence programs, but we were at the dinner table the other night, and we were discussing what had happened in the girls' days at school. Sixteen currently has a Health class that is, for at least the third or fourth time, going over the essentials of human sexuality. We were all laughing so hard we almost couldn't finish dinner after she told us that the boy who sits next to her had announced to the class that he'd shaved the Nike Swoosh into his pubes. :lol:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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JBryan
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:lol:
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 06:06 AM
Quote:
 
I agree with Klaus. I don't see it as a school's business to "teach" abstinence.


Let's examine this. It's a good example of just how diseased liberalism is.

To a liberal:

It's not ok to teach a kid *not* to have sex.
It's not ok to teach them the value of waiting.
But we *must* teach them how to use a condom.
We *must* teach them how to have homosexual sex in the third grade.
We *must* provide them with books entitled "Suzy has two mommies".
We *must* not use the words "Mother" or "Father".

And you call yourselves "progressives"... "enlightened".....

And you wonder why I say that liberalism is a mental disorder....

You seem to have a very black and white image of what 'we liberals' think. Who said it had to be one extreme or the other? No one here.

When I say educate, I mean fully. And this includes the pros and cons of having sex. What the risks are, and why not rushing into it may be a really, really good idea. And what happens if you do pick up a STD, or get pregnant. And, what to do about it. How to prevent these things (and yes, logically and obviously abstinence fits in the discussion here), and what to do and where to go, and when to go, if you do screw up. And maybe, just maybe, we can have one less teenage high school dropout welfare mum, or one less dead fetus in a trash bag in the college dorm.

Education.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 07:05 AM
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 07:57 AM
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 04:59 AM
If a 19th century janitor in scrubs says it is so, it must be so.

That's quite enough with the "janitor" bullsh!t.

When he stops the lawyer remarks, I'll stop the janitor remarks.

But since you feel just as free to make lawyer remarks as he does, you have zero standing with me to comment.

I'm just trying to understand which word Quirt's offended at...the location of Philadelphia or the vocation of lawyer.

All in all, I'm less inclined to think you'd be offended at the former....

As far as potshots, I think the first salvo was fired by Quirt-the-dictionary. For someone who does't care what I write, he certainly hangs on every word, even going so far as to critique usage.

However, I have pointed out the usage was proper and conveyed the idea.

To ask more from a word than that, is simply being picayunish.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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sue
Apr 29 2008, 10:05 AM
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 06:06 AM
Quote:
 
I agree with Klaus. I don't see it as a school's business to "teach" abstinence.


Let's examine this. It's a good example of just how diseased liberalism is.

To a liberal:

It's not ok to teach a kid *not* to have sex.
It's not ok to teach them the value of waiting.
But we *must* teach them how to use a condom.
We *must* teach them how to have homosexual sex in the third grade.
We *must* provide them with books entitled "Suzy has two mommies".
We *must* not use the words "Mother" or "Father".

And you call yourselves "progressives"... "enlightened".....

And you wonder why I say that liberalism is a mental disorder....

You seem to have a very black and white image of what 'we liberals' think. Who said it had to be one extreme or the other? No one here.

When I say educate, I mean fully. And this includes the pros and cons of having sex. What the risks are, and why not rushing into it may be a really, really good idea. And what happens if you do pick up a STD, or get pregnant. And, what to do about it. How to prevent these things (and yes, logically and obviously abstinence fits in the discussion here), and what to do and where to go, and when to go, if you do screw up. And maybe, just maybe, we can have one less teenage high school dropout welfare mum, or one less dead fetus in a trash bag in the college dorm.

Education.

Why does he pigeon-hole liberal thinking?

Look at a lot of the answers in this thread. Many consist of nothng but mockery for a position that abstinence is a goal wothy of effort.

I find that quite telling, and sad. It shows me exactly how much many of you value things that years ago were held to be virtues in a young man or woman - chastity, self-control and an emphasis on sex being something special.

After all, love is nothing more than a biological response to the need to breed, having been induced by pheremones.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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Well, if you need me to say it, I'm happy to say it.

For teenagers, abstinence is a goal worthy of effort.

However, prevention of disease is also a goal worthy of effort. And condoms prevent disease.

Suppose a doctor encounters an overweight patient with high cholesterol, at risk of heart disease. What should the doctor do with that patient?

Should he say, "Lose some weight or you'll have heart problems", and leave it at that?

Or should he say, "Lose some weight or you'll have heart problems", and also put him on aspirin therapy and a statin?

Losing some weight is a goal worthy of effort. But, in case you're not going to do that, preserving life anyway is a goal worthy of effort, so take aspirin and a statin.

Should doctors stop telling people to take aspirin and a statin because that might not give them sufficient encouragement to lose weight?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 08:59 AM


Should doctors stop telling people to take aspirin and a statin because that might not give them sufficient encouragement to lose weight?

No, but they should not give out aspirin or a statin because it's not morally ideal. :biggrin:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Where did the "teenagers" crap come into this? I'm talking about the fact that liberal goofballs are teaching this in third grade.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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Larry
Apr 29 2008, 12:10 PM
Where did the "teenagers" crap come into this? I'm talking about the fact that liberal goofballs are teaching this in third grade.

Based only on personal experience of my kids and their classmates, third grade seems a little young.

However, sixth grade is definitely NOT too young.

So, what's the right age? I'd think that has to be a judgment call. If it were me, living in a suburb without much crime and with lots of stay-at-home moms, I'd guess fifth or sixth grade. But, in an inner city, it might be a different story.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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Oh, and I remember, decades ago when I was in school, when all the girls were pulled out of class for a movie (on menstruation). It was fourth grade.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Axtremus
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Klaus
Apr 29 2008, 10:36 AM
Well, I think it was Churchill who said something like "however beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the result".

As you can see here, the US has 53 teenage births per 1000 women. The Netherlands 5 per 1000. That's less than 10% of the US rate.

As you may know, the Netherlands is the nightmare country of morally conservative people. The Red Light district in Amsterdam is famous in the whole world, and their prostitutes are organized in unions rather than being chased by the police. Pornographic images can be seen in all kinds of places all over the country, including TV, and they are not hidden from the kids. Kids learn about condoms, gays, and everything before they know the times table.

Yet... the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US. And it's not because of abortion - the abortion rate in The Netherlands is also way lower. I would even guess that kids in The Netherlands do on average wait longer before they have sex for the first time than the US. That's speculation, but the hard fact remains: the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US.

How do you explain that?

By "times table," I assume you mean the "multiplications table," right?

How do I explain that?
May be the Netherlanders looked up the times table wrong while calculating their teenage birth rate?

:D
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
You seem to have a very black and white image of what 'we liberals' think. Who said it had to be one extreme or the other? No one here.

When I say educate, I mean fully. And this includes the pros and cons of having sex. What the risks are, and why not rushing into it may be a really, really good idea. And what happens if you do pick up a STD, or get pregnant. And, what to do about it. How to prevent these things (and yes, logically and obviously abstinence fits in the discussion here), and what to do and where to go, and when to go, if you do screw up. And maybe, just maybe, we can have one less teenage high school dropout welfare mum, or one less dead fetus in a trash bag in the college dorm.

Education.


Here's a novel idea, Sue - why don't we teach kids some values? How about we teach them what the word "respect" means? Or "responsibility"? How about we teach them what "family" means? How about instead of teaching them how to screw, we instill principles in them that teaches them the benefits of making sex something special between two people who love each other? How about we teach parents how to be parents, teach kids there are consequences to their actions.

Or, we could load up all the welfare recipients that are screwing up the US statistics and ship them to the Netherlands so Klaus could see what happens when a whole segment of the population does nothing but drop babies left and right and wait on government to pay them for it.

My point is this: the liberal side of things are pushing for the destruction of every single thing that builds character in a person, while pushing for every single thing that destroys character in people. Our third graders are being forced to put all their school supplies into a common pot so that all the kids end up with the same amout - Socialism. They're pushing to have the words "father" and "mother" eliminated because it might offend kids who have two mommies - all while making them read books about "Suzy has two mommies", they're being taught how to have gay sex at ages when they really aren't even asking questions about sex, and even once they reach the age where it is appropriate to teach them about sex, the liberal goofballs don't want them taught that it might just be a good idea to keep their dick in their pants.

What's even more sad is the number of supposedly educated adults who can't seem to add this all up and see the total picture being created.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 09:24 AM


Here's a novel idea, Sue - why don't we teach kids some values? How about we teach them what the word "respect" means? Or "responsibility"? How about we teach them what "family" means? How about instead of teaching them how to screw, we instill principles in them that teaches them the benefits of making sex something special between two people who love each other? How about we teach parents how to be parents, teach kids there are consequences to their actions.

Doesn't always work, and it's not always due to a failing on the part of the parents. Parents can steer a child in the right direction but at the end of the day they're still an independent person. Some people will still **** up no matter how great their parents are. I mean, it's what humans do. We **** up from time to time.

I dunno about the rest of your post but I'm all for a full sex education at some point: abstinence and what's safe. Third grade is ridiculous young but sadly Quirt's right, middle school sure isn't. I grew up in a very conservative area and family values were held in very high regard but teenage pregnancies still happened. Some middle school ones, too.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Jolly
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Quote:
 
Doesn't always work


Nothing works all the time in human relations.

I think much of what we are talking about here is emphasis.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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sue
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Larry
Apr 29 2008, 10:24 AM
Quote:
 
You seem to have a very black and white image of what 'we liberals' think. Who said it had to be one extreme or the other? No one here.

When I say educate, I mean fully. And this includes the pros and cons of having sex. What the risks are, and why not rushing into it may be a really, really good idea. And what happens if you do pick up a STD, or get pregnant. And, what to do about it. How to prevent these things (and yes, logically and obviously abstinence fits in the discussion here), and what to do and where to go, and when to go, if you do screw up. And maybe, just maybe, we can have one less teenage high school dropout welfare mum, or one less dead fetus in a trash bag in the college dorm.

Education.


Here's a novel idea, Sue - why don't we teach kids some values? How about we teach them what the word "respect" means? Or "responsibility"? How about we teach them what "family" means? How about instead of teaching them how to screw, we instill principles in them that teaches them the benefits of making sex something special between two people who love each other? How about we teach parents how to be parents, teach kids there are consequences to their actions.


Nothing novel about that at all, Larry. We should (and some of us do, you know) teach our children that.
Where is it written that you can't teach your child values and responsibilities, as well as ensuring they have information on safe sex, and contraception? If we teach our children how to make good decisions, how to take responsibility for their actions, this can work in all areas of their lives.
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