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Abstinence programmes in US; For teens
Topic Started: Apr 26 2008, 09:02 AM (1,745 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Jolly
Apr 28 2008, 04:56 PM
Gee, and I thought lawyers were supposed to be the ultimate wordsmiths.

From Webster's:

advocation
One entry found.

advocate[2,transitive verb] 

Main Entry: 2ad·vo·cate 
Pronunciation: \-ˌkāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ad·vo·cat·ed; ad·vo·cat·ing
Date: 1599

: to plead in favor of
synonyms see support
— ad·vo·ca·tion  noun
— ad·vo·ca·tive  adjective
— ad·vo·ca·tor  noun

or the freedictionary.com :

Ad`vo`ca´tion
n.  The act of advocating or pleading; plea; advocacy.

The holy Jesus . . . sits in heaven in a perpetual advocation for us.
- Jer. Taylor.

Try here:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advocation

dictionary.com describes it as obsolete.

Oh, and Webster's? They describe it as archaic.

Quote:
 

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

Advocation
Ad`vo*ca"tion\, n. [L. advocatio: cf. OF. avocation. See Advowson.]

1. The act of advocating or pleading; plea; advocacy. [Archaic]


Lawyers quote things accurately, and actually give citations and links.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
The word "advocation" does not exist in my $19.95 Radio Shack electronic pocket dictionary. Radio Shack is electronics, so it is much more advanced than either source referred to above.

My source is clearly in the 21st century.

Therefore, the word does not exist.
:)
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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
Quote:
 
Sue:
Which is why it is essential that kids learn how to prevent pregnancies and STDs, that they know where to go for medical help/advice...


I would add psychological counseling and abortion services to the above (maybe that's what you meant?), as well as instruction in legal protections to ensure their privacy from their parents.

(I went from being sensible to sarcastic)
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Apr 28 2008, 02:26 PM
sue
Apr 27 2008, 12:23 PM
Jolly
Apr 27 2008, 11:19 AM
Actually, I not only want people to be responsible for their own behavior, I also don't want to pay for their screw-ups.


Which is why it is essential that kids learn how to prevent pregnancies and STDs, that they know where to go for medical help/advice, that they are educated. Not just told to not have sex.

But there's a difference between education and advocation.

At one point in time in our culture, it was considered admirable to have self-control...that man could rise above his animal origins through moderation, societal manners and consideration of his fellow man or woman.

It was also taught to youngsters how a young gentleman or a young lady should behave.

Maybe I'm being a bit puritanical, but we have sent too many messages through too many media, that sex from what it should be and transform it into something tawdry, vulgar and with a whiff of the illicit. We have made women into nothing more than objects, a meat du jour.

Witness the plethora of 14-year olds dressed as hooker wannabes, wandering the walkways of almost any suburban mall.

Due to the nature of man, we will not stop young people from having sex. But wouldn't it be nice if we told them to wait a bit, rather than encouraging the act through an implied acceptance of it?

Women become objects when they are uneducated, when they don't know their rights. When they don't understand about their own sexuality, and reproductive choices. When they are left in the dark, and their sexuality is seen as something to be 'given away'.

I totally agree that we should encourage kids to wait, Jolly. But I believe we can encourage sensible decision making by making kids well informed, and comfortable with their bodies, not blind ignorance.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Quote:
 

Women become objects when they are uneducated, when they don't know their rights. When they don't understand about their own sexuality, and reproductive choices. When they are left in the dark, and their sexuality is seen as something to be 'given away'.


I would point out that women in North America today are better educated than at any time in the history of the continent. I feel like they have a better grasp of their rights, than at any time in history.

And yes, I think in sexual social situations, many of them view themselves as nothing more than objects of lust. And act accordingly.

Sadly, many of which are quite educated.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rainman
Apr 28 2008, 04:09 PM
The word "advocation" does not exist in my $19.95 Radio Shack electronic pocket dictionary. Radio Shack is electronics, so it is much more advanced than either source referred to above.

My source is clearly in the 21st century.

Therefore, the word does not exist.
:)

Ah, but it does.

You have read it here today. Even if its use has been disparaged by a Philadelphia lawyer.

Which somehow makes me feel better about my vocabulary....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
If a 19th century janitor in scrubs says it is so, it must be so.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

Women become objects when they are uneducated, when they don't know their rights. When they don't understand about their own sexuality, and reproductive choices. When they are left in the dark, and their sexuality is seen as something to be 'given away'.

I totally agree that we should encourage kids to wait, Jolly. But I believe we can encourage sensible decision making by making kids well informed, and comfortable with their bodies, not blind ignorance.


:clap:
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
US lawmakers are investigating whether to cut government funding for health education programmes that promote sexual abstinence until marriage.


Why in hell are there government programs to promote sexual abstinence until marriage? That's clearly not something that a government has any business in. This is one of the areas where parents have the responsibility to educate their child, but not governments.

Apart from that, whether you want to wait with sex until marriage is a very personal decision, and those who don't want to wait are not "morally inferior" or whatever - maybe they are from the point of view of some religions, but they shouldn't be from a government point of view.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Klaus
Apr 29 2008, 05:40 AM
Why in hell are there government programs to promote sexual abstinence until marriage? That's clearly not something that a government has any business in.

I'm afraid it's yet another example of an interfering government and modern liberalism run rampant, Klaus.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree with Klaus. I don't see it as a school's business to "teach" abstinence. I think we had one day of "sex ed" where they gave basic facts about biology, and I don't remember if they said anything about birth control. Later when I was in college (so I don't think I was lacking in information about birth control at that point in life) my girlfriend told me the pill was making her sick. So she stopped taking them. Looking back on it, I must have known that, but I didn't think to use a condom (and that was dumb). So, I found out she was pregnant and getting an abortion when she called me and told me that. If anyone was to blame, it was me. I wouldn't put any of the blame on the one day of "sex ed" or have thought the school was to blame if my teachers had said nothing. In this day and age, there is no shortage of public service announcements saying "use condoms if you're going to have sex." It would have been totally irrelevant if my teachers in middle school or high school had said "don't have sex." For better or worse, people are free to make their own choices, and have to be responsible for the consequences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 04:59 AM
If a 19th century janitor in scrubs says it is so, it must be so.

That's quite enough with the "janitor" bullsh!t.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 07:57 AM
QuirtEvans
Apr 29 2008, 04:59 AM
If a 19th century janitor in scrubs says it is so, it must be so.

That's quite enough with the "janitor" bullsh!t.

When he stops the lawyer remarks, I'll stop the janitor remarks.

But since you feel just as free to make lawyer remarks as he does, you have zero standing with me to comment.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I agree with Klaus. I don't see it as a school's business to "teach" abstinence.


Let's examine this. It's a good example of just how diseased liberalism is.

To a liberal:

It's not ok to teach a kid *not* to have sex.
It's not ok to teach them the value of waiting.
But we *must* teach them how to use a condom.
We *must* teach them how to have homosexual sex in the third grade.
We *must* provide them with books entitled "Suzy has two mommies".
We *must* not use the words "Mother" or "Father".

And you call yourselves "progressives"... "enlightened".....

And you wonder why I say that liberalism is a mental disorder....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
But since you feel just as free to make lawyer remarks as he does, you have zero standing with me to comment.


This may come as a surprise to you Scooter, but my "standing" with you is of absolutely no importance to me.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 08:07 AM
Quote:
 
But since you feel just as free to make lawyer remarks as he does, you have zero standing with me to comment.


This may come as a surprise to you Scooter, but my "standing" with you is of absolutely no importance to me.

Just as your telling me to knock off the janitor comments is meaningless to me.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Of course it's meaningless to you. You're a vindictive, spiteful little man who never misses an opportunity to get in the mud and wallow. But everyone else can see that I asked you to stop with the personal cheap shots, and you refused. So whether or not it means anything to you is beside the point - you still came out of it looking like the spiteful little worm you are.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 08:12 AM
Of course it's meaningless to you. You're a vindictive, spiteful little man who never misses an opportunity to get in the mud and wallow. But everyone else can see that I asked you to stop with the personal cheap shots, and you refused. So whether or not it means anything to you is beside the point - you still came out of it looking like the spiteful little worm you are.

And you're a mean-spirited, nasty, poor excuse for a human being. See? Two people can do it. And it's just as meaningless either way.

Anyone with an ounce of fairness would see that Jolly took the first shot with his "Philadelphia lawyer" comment. But, of course, since I limited that to people with an ounce of fairness, that excludes you.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
At least a janitor does something of value to the community...
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 03:06 PM
Quote:
 
I agree with Klaus. I don't see it as a school's business to "teach" abstinence.


Let's examine this. It's a good example of just how diseased liberalism is.

To a liberal:

It's not ok to teach a kid *not* to have sex.
It's not ok to teach them the value of waiting.
But we *must* teach them how to use a condom.
We *must* teach them how to have homosexual sex in the third grade.
We *must* provide them with books entitled "Suzy has two mommies".
We *must* not use the words "Mother" or "Father".

And you call yourselves "progressives"... "enlightened".....

And you wonder why I say that liberalism is a mental disorder....

You are making a straw man argument. I for one think that most of these things should not be taught in school either.

Also, there is a big difference in teaching facts or knowledge, such as "how to use a condom" or "Some groups of people believe that sex before marriage is bad and this is why", and urging them to subscribe to a specific set of moral values (such as "you must not have sex before being married"). I'm very much in favor of the former, but the latter is much more critical.

I'm not against teaching a kid moral values - rather the opposite - but that's something the parents must do, not the government or schools. I thought you were in favor of the government not telling people how to live their life, i.e., no collectivism?

I'm also a little surprised that you say this, Larry, since from many of your other comments about women I'd conclude that you don't live according to your own moral standards either.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
and urging them to subscribe to a specific set of moral values (such as "you must not have sex before being married").


Why does it have to be because of moral values? In a world where VD is rampant and deadly, I would think it prudent to convince kids to wait. Given the life altering consequences of unwanted pregnancy, I would think it would be prudent to convince kids to wait.

What I *don't* get is how the left can whine that teaching a kid the importance and yes, value (as opposed to "values") of abstinence is somehow "forcing my morals on them", but teaching them how to butt f*ck each other is not.

Secondly, why teach a third grader how to use a condom? Teaching them how to use one assumes they're going to use one, and sends a message to them that you expect that they will be using them. Now the kid is thinking about doing things that would require him to use one. Teach him to keep his dick in his pants. Or better yet, keep your mouth shut and let the kid grow up before you teach him anything. Teaching third graders to use condoms all while you're teaching them to "accept homosexuality as normal" all while having them read and study and discuss "Suzy has two mommies" ....

what is it the left doesn't get here?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Apr 29 2008, 09:19 AM
Quote:
 
and urging them to subscribe to a specific set of moral values (such as "you must not have sex before being married").


Why does it have to be because of moral values? In a world where VD is rampant and deadly, I would think it prudent to convince kids to wait. Given the life altering consequences of unwanted pregnancy, I would think it would be prudent to convince kids to wait.

What I *don't* get is how the left can whine that teaching a kid the importance and yes, value (as opposed to "values") of abstinence is somehow "forcing my morals on them", but teaching them how to butt f*ck each other is not.

Secondly, why teach a third grader how to use a condom? Teaching them how to use one assumes they're going to use one, and sends a message to them that you expect that they will be using them. Now the kid is thinking about doing things that would require him to use one. Teach him to keep his dick in his pants. Or better yet, keep your mouth shut and let the kid grow up before you teach him anything. Teaching third graders to use condoms all while you're teaching them to "accept homosexuality as normal" all while having them read and study and discuss "Suzy has two mommies" ....

what is it the left doesn't get here?

It's not an either/or, and that's what the right doesn't get.

It's perfectly OK to teach them abstinence, as long as you also teach them how to be careful.

And that's not a mixed message. Any more than "Don't use heroin, but it's doubly dangerous to share needles" is a mixed message.

The reason you teach kids that homosexuality is normal is because roughly 10% of the population is homosexual, and you don't want kids to feel ostracized because they belong to a non-traditional family, or if they start having those feelings themselves.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
How about if we teach it this way:

Children, this is a condom. If used properly, it can provide some modicum of protection against pregnancy and STD's. It won't, however, provide any measure of protection [size=14]WHEN YOU"RE BURNING IN HELL, YOU LITTLE SINNERS!!![/size]

:devil:
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well, I think it was Churchill who said something like "however beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the result".

As you can see here, the US has 53 teenage births per 1000 women. The Netherlands 5 per 1000. That's less than 10% of the US rate.

As you may know, the Netherlands is the nightmare country of morally conservative people. The Red Light district in Amsterdam is famous in the whole world, and their prostitutes are organized in unions rather than being chased by the police. Pornographic images can be seen in all kinds of places all over the country, including TV, and they are not hidden from the kids. Kids learn about condoms, gays, and everything before they know the times table.

Yet... the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US. And it's not because of abortion - the abortion rate in The Netherlands is also way lower. I would even guess that kids in The Netherlands do on average wait longer before they have sex for the first time than the US. That's speculation, but the hard fact remains: the teenage birth rate is 10% of that of the US.

How do you explain that?
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
There's another important quote, Klaus:

"Don't confuse me with the facts."
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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