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When galaxies collide; and we're not talking Fords
Topic Started: Apr 21 2008, 05:00 AM (2,349 Views)
Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
If there are multiple universes then did they all come into existence at the same "time"?

If not then time did not start when one was created if a different one was already in existence.

I reject the notion that time is a dimension.
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jgoo
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Very cool picture. Does anybody here watch the series on The History Channel "The Universe"? There is one episode where it talks about how our Milky Way Galaxy will one day collide with with the Andromeda Galaxy. It has computer generated graphics of how the night sky will look as Andromeda gets nearer, and then what the actual collision process will look like. Very awesome. It'd sure be something to look up in the night sky to see a sight like that.
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Copper
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Shortstop

The number of universes is infinite

Just because there is a second clock doesn't mean the first doesn't exist.

And they all started on Sunday the rest of creation took about 5 more days.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

If there are multiple universes then did they all come into existence at the same "time"?

If not then time did not start when one was created if a different one was already in existence.

I reject the notion that time is a dimension.


If you are talking about completely separate universes then it does not mean anything to ask whether they began at the same time or not. Just as it does not mean anything to ask where one universe is relative to another in space (they are seperate universes with seperate spaces) so too it does not mean anything to ask where one universe is relative another in time (they are seperate universes with seperate times)

If you are rejecting the notion that time is a dimension then you are rejecting (amongst other things) special and general relativity - how do you account for their empirical success?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Klaus
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Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Klaus
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Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mark
Apr 21 2008, 05:34 PM
If there are multiple universes then did they all come into existence at the same "time"?

If not then time did not start when one was created if a different one was already in existence.

I reject the notion that time is a dimension.

Mark, Mark, come back to the darkness, my lost brother.

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Moonbat
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Moonbat - what I am reading says that The Big Bang began with all the material in the universe about the size of an atom. If that is so, doesn't that mean that it started in a single, very small space. If everything then is expanding out from that point, why isn't there a void in the middle of what should be roughly, spherical?


Because space itself is also the size of the atom at that point. You are imagining normal flat space and an explosion of stuff occuring within that space and spreading outwards but in big bang theory it is not simply stuff but space itself that begins with the big bang and it is not simply stuff but space itself that is expanding.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space
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Mark
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It's quite the leap of faith if you ask me.

:P
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Moonbat
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There is evidence for the expansion. Time beginning with the big bang is more tentative because it's a relativistic prediction and relativity may well break down at those ultra small scales.

The two main contenders (that as of yet are not backed by evidence) to go beyond the standard model are quantum loop theory and string theory both of which predict time does not start with the big bang.
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smithodude
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It has been proven that time slows down the faster you travel through X,Y and/or Z so I don't think it's a huge leap of faith to expect time to slow down to zero at some velocity (ie, once velocity through X,Y and Z sums to the speed of light). If time has slowed down to zero then to all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

This is the layman's version I understand.
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David Burton
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Moonbat
Apr 21 2008, 05:33 AM
Actually we know quite a lot about it. Though of course there is also alot we don't know.


Caution to the subject: the experiment is still running.
Knowledge is one thing, Truth is often another.
Can the one be known without the other?
How would one know?
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David Burton
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Moonbat
Apr 21 2008, 06:10 AM
Mikhailoh
Apr 21 2008, 01:34 PM
Hubris.  :lol2:

Since you don't have the feintest idea what we know you are in no position to comment on it.

OH YOU BET WE ARE BUSTER!!!
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Daniel
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Moonbat, go easy on us non-science types.

Big Al, thank you.
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Horace
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smithodude
Apr 21 2008, 05:32 PM
It has been proven that time slows down the faster you travel through X,Y and/or Z so I don't think it's a huge leap of faith to expect time to slow down to zero at some velocity (ie, once velocity through X,Y and Z sums to the speed of light). If time has slowed down to zero then to all intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

This is the layman's version I understand.

as an object approaches the speed of light its mass approaches infinity, so the force required to accelerate it approaches infinity, so it can't reach the speed of light. It doesn't make sense to me why that's the case, but that's the case (according to the theory of relativity at least). Einstein intuited all this from some pretty basic principles, so it must make sense on some level. I have been looking for a good explanation for a while but nothing has really clicked yet.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Moonbat
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Knowledge is one thing, Truth is often another.
Can the one be known without the other?
How would one know?


Our body of knowledge is the best bet we have for truth, we never have absolute certainty but that doesn't mean some ideas are not very strong.
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Moonbat
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You see, there's only one way of knowing: science, and you do not know what is known because you are not a member of that club. Science will progress- without you (and me).

It's like trying to touch someone behind glass. You're never going to be able to do it (sorry Moonbat).

There are more ways of knowing (epistemology) than natural sciences. As you said, maybe one day Moonbat will figure that out. But in a way, I hope he never has to.


Science is just about looking at the world and figuring out what's going on, we go out and observe the world in every way we can, we come up with ideas about our observations and we test those ideas. If we make observations that contradict earlier ideas we go back and try again.

Doing that we've gradually built up a picture of the universe we live in. Given the generality of the laws of physics i think we do actually know quite a lot though as i say in terms of the percentage of true statements known by atleast one human that is vanishingly small.

There is no club - anyone can go out and read books or attend courses, but if you are going to make grand pronouncements regarding what we know or what we don't then you need to have a good feel for what we know and we don't.

There is kind a personal "knowledge" which is really our response to things that is in a sense a "different way of knowing", i don't learn how i feel when someone plays Beethoven's 5th from a journal article i experience it. People can share the way they respond to different things with one another and so we can get some feel for how others experience things. And that body knowledge is not scientific it's the humanities. It's totally orthogonal to scientific ideas, the two are not incompatible in any sense, there's nothing about the exploration of human experience that is somehow contradictory to our explanations of the world nor is it somehow less or more than scientific knowledge but what's it's not is an objective account of the how things are, it's not a set of explanations of the world around us.
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Daniel
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[size=7]Damn, damn, damn! Foiled again! I erased the damn post but too late! I wrote that post because your posts to Mik were rather condescending and I didn't like it. Not all of epistemology is natural science. In fact, a lot of it is not. You almost come across as if you are in a cult sometimes. Please try to see your posts how people who are not science students at Oxford might see them. You do come off as you are a member of a club Mik isn't in- it is obvious that you come across that way. So much for being diplomatic, Daniel. :rolleyes: [/size]
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Daniel
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Moonbat
Apr 21 2008, 06:07 AM
...the fact remains that almost every phenomena that has ever been seen can be accounted for within the confines of the standard model. Every pattern we see when we look out the window, every sound, every ripple in the ocean, every motion of every animal, everything appears to be accounted for with those known laws. I don't mean we understand every phenomena but we understand that ultimately all the every day phenomena can be understood within the confines of the standard model.

The conceptual unification of chemistry with physics and of biology with chemistry/physics means that in terms of our grasp of the fabric of reality - of the nature of the world we live in, i don't think it's really fair to say we know very little.

That is crazy talk. "The" standard model. Every ripple in the ocean. Every motion of every animal? Are you serious? Tell that to my cat. She's been pissing me off lately.
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Moonbat
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When you say not all epistemology is natural science i don't understand what you are saying - what do you mean? Can you give some examples?

In terms of the club thing - i mean if pointing out that you should have a feel for what we know before making grand pronouncements on the topic means i sound like in a club then :shrug: i don't know what i can do about it.
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Daniel
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Moonbat
Apr 21 2008, 06:45 AM
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The rhetorical equivalent of 'I know you are, but what am I?' . An Oxford education isn't what it used to be I suppose.


That response doesn't even make sense.

My point was simply that you are in no position to make claims regarding humanity's knowledge or lack thereof because you don't have a good grasp of our understanding of the world.

No, that's disingenuous. Your point was that he is not in a position to make claims about humanity's knowledge because he is not a scientist. And by "our understanding" of the world you meant physics et al, did you not.
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Moonbat
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Daniel
Apr 22 2008, 09:19 AM
Moonbat
Apr 21 2008, 06:07 AM
...the fact remains that almost every phenomena that has ever been seen can be accounted for within the confines of the standard model. Every pattern we see when we look out the window, every sound, every ripple in the ocean, every motion of every animal, everything appears to be accounted for with those known laws. I don't mean we understand every phenomena but we understand that ultimately all the every day phenomena can be understood within the confines of the standard model.

The conceptual unification of chemistry with physics and of biology with chemistry/physics means that in terms of our grasp of the fabric of reality - of the nature of the world we live in, i don't think it's really fair to say we know very little.

That is crazy talk. "The" standard model. Every ripple in the ocean. Every motion of every animal? Are you serious? Tell that to my cat. She's been pissing me off lately.

You don't even need the whole of the standard model, electrodynamics alone is sufficient for the motion of the oceans and animals since the nuclei aren't doing anything interesting.

Are you of the view that the motion of animals or the ocean violates the standard model?
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Daniel
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To answer your question- most people conceive of truth as a philosophical pursuit, not as a scientific one. To you knowledge is scientific, but Mik's statement, the one you took objection to- colloquially was something like an expression of wonder, not a point to argue about. At least that's how I saw it.
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Moonbat
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No, that's disingenuous. Your point was that he is not in a position to make claims about humanity's knowledge because he is not a scientist. And by "our understanding" of the world you meant physics et al, did you not.


Well it's not because he's not a scientists, nothing stops non-scientists learning science.

I did indeed mean physics et al. by our understanding of the world - and yea if you're going to talk about what we understand then first you have to know what we understand. Does that not sound reasonable?
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Daniel
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What is "the standard model"? Is it a theoretical model derived from interdisciplinary study? Would you say that it is or it is not anything other than a description? And if it is a description, do you think that it is an adequate one to describe the complicated reality that is an animal?
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