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Carter breaks it down with CNN; Talks about his Hamas meeting.
Topic Started: Apr 21 2008, 04:57 AM (232 Views)
Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/04/21/carter.hamas/

Quote:
 
Former President Jimmy Carter said Monday that Hamas is prepared to accept peace with Israel if the Palestinians approve any agreement negotiated with Israel.


Quote:
 
"If President (Mahmoud) Abbas of the Palestinians and Prime Minister (Ehud) Olmert reach an agreement for peace, and if it is submitted to the Palestinians and the Palestinians approve it... Hamas will accept it," Carter said in a Monday interview with CNN.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Right.

They will accept it, and then resume lobbing rockets over into Israel, just like with every other agreement. This was the hallmark of his presidency - he would be told things he wanted to hear, and he would believe them.

Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
So Carter said something. With his track record, we're supposed to pay attention to that?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Larry
Apr 21 2008, 05:06 AM
So Carter said something. With his track record, we're supposed to pay attention to that?

Nahh, but in my opinion his take on the meeting is news-worthy.

Quote:
 
"I'm not a negotiator, I'm just trying to understand different opinions and communicate, provide communications between people that won't communicate with each other,"
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Apr 21 2008, 09:00 AM
Right.

They will accept it, and then resume lobbing rockets over into Israel, just like with every other agreement. This was the hallmark of his presidency - he would be told things he wanted to hear, and he would believe them.

I take it your basic position is that of mistrust, of hopelessness -- you do not believe that it is ever possible for the Palestinians (or is it just Hamas?) to genuinely accept peaceful co-existence with Israel in the Middle-East. With that mind set, the only sensible outcome is either the elimination of Israel or the elimination of Palestine (or is it just Hamas) from the Middle-East.

(Question: do you really want to wipe Palestine [or just Hamas] off the map?)

Carter thinks there is still hope, so he keeps trying, he keeps communicating.

BTW, don't just "see" only the Palestinians (or is it just Hamas) firing home-made rockets into Israel. You should realize that Israel also roll tanks and send bombers into Palestinian territories from time to time, as well as putting up new settlements. I'll bet you those tanks and bombers inflict more severe damage then the Palestinians' amateur rockets.

I do not see either side holding the moral high ground as far as honoring agreements go (correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you think Israel holds the moral high ground here). But I accept that supporting Israel in this Middle-East conflict is good for US interest.
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Mikhailoh
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It is not Carter's place to play at international diplomacy on behalf of the United States.

Hamas's charter currently calls for Israel's destruction by force and rules out peace negotiations with it. Any agreement made by Hamas is worthless so long as this charter exists, therefore negotiations with them are worthless.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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smithodude
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I believe he's been negotiating the terms of release for an Israeli soldier called Gilead Shalit as well. The interfering old fool.

The world needs more optimism
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Apr 21 2008, 10:49 AM
It is not Carter's place to play at international diplomacy on behalf of the United States.

Hamas's charter currently calls for Israel's destruction by force and rules out peace negotiations with it. Any agreement made by Hamas is worthless so long as this charter exists, therefore negotiations with them are worthless.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

1. Has Carter ever claimed that he is doing whatever he's doing in the name of the US?
(I thought this was discussed not long ago, no? Was there a conclusion?)

2. Do you believe that Hamas may change that charter "if President (Mahmoud) Abbas of the Palestinians and Prime Minister (Ehud) Olmert reach an agreement for peace, and if it is submitted to the Palestinians and the Palestinians approve it" ? If you don't believe that Hamas will ever drop that part of their charter, then my previous post (and question) applies.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Do you think Carter caused Hamas' heart to change to make that statement, or do you think that is the result of diplomacy that goes unpublicized, conducted through back channels?

Carter is not just a private citizen, he is a former president interfering with US and Israeli policy. The fact that people cling to his statements with some sort of optimism that somehow he has triggered a 'breakthrough' is simply further proof of his usefulness to Hamas.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Apr 21 2008, 11:14 AM
Do you think Carter caused Hamas' heart to change to make that statement, or do you think that is the result of diplomacy that goes unpublicized, conducted through back channels?

Carter is not just a private citizen, he is a former president interfering with US and Israeli policy. The fact that people cling to his statements with some sort of optimism that somehow he has triggered a 'breakthrough' is simply further proof of his usefulness to Hamas.

You seem to assume that Carter, whatever the heck he has been doing, is giving some people false optimism that Hamas might change. (I didn't say that Hamas has changed its heart and I haven't credit any one with Hamas making that statement, just in case you thought thats what I believe.)

Let's try to settle on whether Hamas will change at all, ever, before we speculate who or what might lead to or cause the change, shall we?

So, pretending that Carter doesn't exist for the moment, we get back to the earlier question: do you believe that Palestinians (or just Hamas) will change to genuinely accept peaceful coexistence with Israel in the Middle-East, ever?

(It's really a simple question that can be answered regardless of what Carter does or doesn't do -- if you believe no, say no. If you believe yes, say yes. So, what say you?)
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Not as long as we go over and say 'Oh, you poor guys.. what can we do to make you happy?'

In other words it won't happen through accommodation of an organization that has as its platform the destruction of Israel.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Apr 21 2008, 02:09 PM
Not as long as we go over and say 'Oh, you poor guys.. what can we do to make you happy?'

In other words it won't happen through accommodation of an organization that has as its platform the destruction of Israel.

So is that a "yes" or a "no"? :unsure:

It seems clear that you don't like the idea of giving Hamas any niceties (it's debatable whether what they ask about having Palestinians vote on some negotiated treaty constitutes a "nicety" or just plain old democratic principal that we Americans love and promote), and it seems you don't like the idea of "talking" to Hamas either.

What's your proposal?

Do you want to exterminate Hamas? (Using US military forces, or using Israelis forces as proxy?)

Do you want to constantly put a gun to Hamas' head? (Constant US military presence in the region?)

Or just ignore them? (Maintain status quo?)
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
If Jimmy Carter said the sun was shining, I'd stick my head out the door to look. :rolleyes:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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smithodude
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Junior Carp
Axtremus
Apr 21 2008, 05:05 PM
Mikhailoh
Apr 21 2008, 02:09 PM
Not as long as we go over and say 'Oh, you poor guys.. what can we do to make you happy?'

In  other words it won't happen through accommodation of an organization that has as its platform the destruction of Israel.

So is that a "yes" or a "no"? :unsure:

It seems clear that you don't like the idea of giving Hamas any niceties (it's debatable whether what they ask about having Palestinians vote on some negotiated treaty constitutes a "nicety" or just plain old democratic principal that we Americans love and promote), and it seems you don't like the idea of "talking" to Hamas either.

What's your proposal?

Do you want to exterminate Hamas? (Using US military forces, or using Israelis forces as proxy?)

Do you want to constantly put a gun to Hamas' head? (Constant US military presence in the region?)

Or just ignore them? (Maintain status quo?)

Or build a bigger wall
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Firstly, I don't believe we have much of any direct role to play that involves contact with Hamas. That is for Israel.

I think what we are doing is trying to erode their support from Syria and Iran. Without that, Hamas does not exist. Until that time, we should not have American citizens handing them propaganda victories.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
Aqua Letifer
Apr 21 2008, 07:57 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/04/21/carter.hamas/

Quote:
 
Former President Jimmy Carter said Monday that Hamas is prepared to accept peace with Israel if the Palestinians approve any agreement negotiated with Israel.


Quote:
 
"If President (Mahmoud) Abbas of the Palestinians and Prime Minister (Ehud) Olmert reach an agreement for peace, and if it is submitted to the Palestinians and the Palestinians approve it... Hamas will accept it," Carter said in a Monday interview with CNN.

Not so fast, Jimmy...


Hamas rebuts Carter's claim of concession

Hamas said yesterday it was prepared to accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders, but contradicted a statement by former President Jimmy Carter that it would accept Israel's right to exist if that was the will of the Palestinian people.

...

However, at a later press conference in Damascus, Mr. Mashaal backed away from the concession announced by Mr. Carter.

"We accept a state on the [1967] line with Jerusalem as capital, real sovereignty and full right of return for refugees, but without recognizing Israel," Al Jazeera quoted him as saying.


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