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| The man from Hope, the man who Hopes,; and the man who brought Hope | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 20 2008, 12:55 PM (532 Views) | |
| Larry | Apr 20 2008, 12:55 PM Post #1 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Bill Clinton was "The Man From Hope". Barack Hussein Obama is the man who "hopes" - mostly as in "hope I get elected". But the man who brought Hope is Pope Benedict. I'm not a Catholic. I have a few issues with the theology. I don't like all the pomp and ritual. But I am not "anti-Catholic" at all - I have no use for the "Rick Zimmer version" of Catholicism, but the true Catholic faith is one I can find much common ground with. Never before have I been so impressed by a man of God - of *any* denomination - than I am of your Pope. I watched every single one of his speeches, and I am convinced that he is truly a man of God. Every word he said was inspiring, and inspired. Those of you who are Catholics should be proud of this man. Those of us who aren't Catholics should be too. I just wanted to say that... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 20 2008, 02:44 PM Post #2 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Isn't he cool? The last two Popes have done more to impress me with Catholicism than anyone I have seen. Bravo. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 20 2008, 03:26 PM Post #3 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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![]() A younger future Benedict XVI with a very young future Ivorythumper. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 20 2008, 03:29 PM Post #4 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Looks like you two are playiing roshambo... :lol: |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| The 89th Key | Apr 20 2008, 03:48 PM Post #5 |
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Ivory - post the other picture of you and MS meeting him (shaking hands). Nice post Larry - I agree. |
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| George K | Apr 20 2008, 05:23 PM Post #6 |
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Finally
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The guy on the far right looks like he's wearing the Golden Helmet of Mambrino - upside down. (nice cookie duster, by the way, IT) |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 20 2008, 05:43 PM Post #7 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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:lol: I hadn't noticed! The fellow to my right is now Paul Cardinal Cordes, and is thought of as papabile (if they would have two German popes in a row). Here you go, 89th:
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| The 89th Key | Apr 20 2008, 05:57 PM Post #8 |
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I love that pic - thanks! |
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| Larry | Apr 20 2008, 06:04 PM Post #9 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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One of the things I liked about the man was that he seems to find all the fuss about him a bit amusing, not ego feeding. He seems to me to have the right attitude about his job - he's just a man, save your praise and worship for God, not the pope. "Pope worship" is one of the things that has always turned me off about Catholicism - not that all Catholics do it, or that excitement about meeting him is wrong. But it is far too easy for simple respect and admiration to cross over into deification of a man to a lot of people. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 20 2008, 09:05 PM Post #10 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It's interesting to see concerns about pope worship or deification or such from Protestants when any such thing would be completely and unanimously condemned by every pope or council or catechism, makes no sense from a Catholic view of things that goes to such great lengths to insist on the uniqueness of Christ's divinity that the Protestants find calling his mother "Mother of God" to be scandalous, and has no bearing on anything that Catholics actually do regarding the pope. But I do understand the persistence of such concerns, as well as the reason for them from devout Christians. It just has no factual basis in reality. So what else turns you off about Catholicism?
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| musicasacra | Apr 20 2008, 09:13 PM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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He was very sweet when we met him in Rome. He stopped in front of us when IT called out to him in Italian and explained to him that we were newly married. He smiled at us, took our hands inside of his hands, and gave us a blessing. We saw him several times during that trip as well, but from a distance the other times. I was moved to read of a woman who traveled into DC just to get a glimpse at him from a distance. She said seeing the pope in person was a lifelong dream of hers as a Catholic. It made me appreciate my experiences all the more. |
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| Klaus | Apr 21 2008, 02:08 AM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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What exactly do you like about him, Larry? His attitude? His positions on political/religious issues? His speeches? I think he is a very clever guy, but his speeches are somewhat famous for being hardly digestible for mere mortals. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 21 2008, 03:35 AM Post #13 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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How about how he has unflinchingly met the challenges the church faces today? His attempts at reconciling with those abused by priests and preventing it in the future - I believe he called it an evil. I did not hear any excuses - just a firm stand. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Axtremus | Apr 21 2008, 05:01 AM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Does having "seeing the pope in person" as a "lifelong dream" qualify as "pope worship"? ![]() Also curious about the concept of "papal infallibility" -- does subscription to that concept qualify as "pope worship," and is that concept also condemned by every pope or council or catechism? |
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| Aqua Letifer | Apr 21 2008, 05:07 AM Post #15 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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(Here we go with this again.) No, not at all.
First of all, the Pope is the head of the church. He is not some kind of polytheistic demi-god, he is a man. Man by definition is fallible. Even aside from that, belief in the contrary wouldn't qualify as "pope worship." |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 21 2008, 05:09 AM Post #16 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I had a dream of seeing the Rolling Stones in person, which I have done several times. But I never worshipped them. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Axtremus | Apr 21 2008, 05:18 AM Post #17 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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What's so noteworthy about making a firm pronouncement that child molestation is evil? The child molestation scandal broke before he became Pope. And it took him this long to make a speech addressing it. Had this come from any other politician, it would have been labeled "too little, too late" at best. What else do you know about what he has done to "reconcil[e] with those abused by priests and prevent[ing] it in the future"? Anything concrete you can point to beyond mere rhetoric? Without concrete results to show, it's premature at best to judge whether "he has unflinchingly met the challenges the church faces today." |
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| Aqua Letifer | Apr 21 2008, 05:22 AM Post #18 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Ax, you don't know what you're talking about. He "spoke out" about the child abuse stuff while it was going on and afterwards. But as you say, he wasn't Pope back then. You're assuming this is some new announcement he made because you didn't see his face on CNN at the time of the scandal. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Larry | Apr 21 2008, 05:24 AM Post #19 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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First, he's not a politician. Second, this wasn't the first he'd had to say on the matter of child molestation, it was the first time he'd said it in the US. The point isn't that he said it, because he's said it before. The point is that it happened in America, and on his first visit to America he didn't take the attitude of "it's been addressed already", he chose to not just address it head on, he addressed it head on repeatedly. He didn't hide from it. Third, if you walked away from everything the man said during the week he was here with no more wisdom or understanding than you've shown, then you've missed his message to the people entirely. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Apr 21 2008, 05:31 AM Post #20 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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100% right. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 21 2008, 05:31 AM Post #21 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Number one, the Pope is not a politican. Catholics do not vote on the Pope or church leadership. Secondly, the church does not move or think in the same two to four year cycles that elected leaders do. You are talking about an institution of nearly two thousand years. The comparison with other politicians is both ignorant and inapplicable. His willingness to confront it firsthand, meet with victims and foreshadow changes in canon law are exactly what I described. In addition to his leadership in that internal flaw, he has been outspoken in international matters as well, calling the Muslim worlkd to task for their own flaws, which any thinking individual would have to conclude absolutely dwarf the molestation scandals of the Catholic church. These are just off the top of my head and fromn current reading. I suppose I could research and find more, but it would be better if you went and did it for yourself. Edit: I see Ax's question has been addressed by others. Good. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| John D'Oh | Apr 21 2008, 05:37 AM Post #22 |
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MAMIL
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I thought that meeting the victims of the Boston child abuse scandal as he did deserved a lot of credit. Many of the Catholics I know and who live in the Boston area felt that this issue was originally handled very badly, with too much concern for minimising the damage to the church and too little for those who were abused. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Apr 21 2008, 05:38 AM Post #23 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No, Ax. Worship (latria) is due God alone. Respect or even "veneration" for others is "dulia", and has nothing to due with divinity. The distinction is important: latria is the root of "idolatry" -- worshipping an object as God. So all sort of things called "popolatry" or "Mariolatry" are anathema to Catholics as well as all Christians who worship God alone. The desire to see the Pope is not worship. The matter of papal infallibility in no way has anything to do with pope worship. Papal infallability, as understood by the theologians, is simply that when formally teaching about matters of faith and morals the pope is preserved from making erroneous statements by the Holy Spirit. Whether or not someone subscribes to that teaching, it has nothing to do with a claim of personal divinity or any competition with God. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | Apr 21 2008, 06:09 AM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That's our fundamental difference right there! ![]() I see the Pope as just another "leader of men" and judge him as I would any other "leader of men" today. You judge him using a different set of criteria and give him free passes where you would not give any other leader of men. D'Oh's reference to the Pope's visit to child molestation victim is something concrete that I can grasp. That said, on the child abuse issue, I would still say that the Pope has fallen short for so far failing to issue a formal apology and more fully cooperating with secular investigation of the child molestation cases (e.g.). Oh, Mik, I realize that the church has other issues besides child molestation. I picked that one because that's the only concrete issue you cited in your previous post that I responded to earlier. That said, I stand by my statement that I think it's premature to declare that the Pope "has unflinchingly met the challenges faced by the church today." It's like Time Magazine anointed Bill Clinton "person of the year" one year into his Presidency. It's just premature to make that kind of judgment where there is not yet sufficient actions and results on which to base such judgment. (Aqua & IT, thanks for responses to my question on "pope worship" and "papal infallibility".) |
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| The 89th Key | Apr 21 2008, 06:16 AM Post #25 |
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Well I can see where such thoughts come from. As a non-Catholic Christian, and I certainly am *not* comparing the two, I can very much see how the excitement, holiness, "worshiping", and overall hoopla around seeing the pope is similar to that of the golden calf that humans built while Moses was on the mountain. I understand, from what Aqua has explained to me, how the Pope is the head of the church, is not worshiped, etc.....as some might think. But I also am not blind to the incredible excitement and value placed upon one man. A man that is as human as anyone else in the room. Just a human that knows a heck of a lot about the Bible. ![]() That said, I'd personally rather hear a sermon by Stephen Kaung.
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