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For Better or Worse?
Topic Started: Mar 7 2008, 10:50 AM (707 Views)
pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
You're probably right.

But again, to me, "for better or worse" does not mean if the person turns physically violent. If that becomes a chronic thing (not just hitting someone once because you got really angry and are sorry about it), then there should be a way out.

IMO, marriage should be a commitment, but when it is so easy to get out of it for reasons that are not physically abusive, how is it really a commitment?
Sam
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
It's one vow among many. The point is that you need to live up to all the vows. In cases of infidelity, abuse, etc...Those vows have already been broken. Contract terminated. In cases of "irreconciable differences, however...
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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sue
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pianojerome
Mar 7 2008, 12:11 PM
To me, "for better or worse" does not mean if the person abuses me -- it means if finances are tough; it means if there are differences of opinion about how to deal with children; it means if there's a conflict over moving to a new state due to a work promotion vs. staying in the community that is already familiar; etc. Those are things that can't necessarily be predicted, and they are things that (IMO) no matter how difficult should not break up a marriage.

to my mind, that's what it means too. And that's where it should be; in one's mind, in one's heart. If you don't feel that, you probably shouldn't be getting married. I'm not crazy about the idea of having a third party tell me I need to say it out loud with the assumption that it has more meaning then.
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sarah_blueparrot
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pianojerome
Mar 7 2008, 08:19 PM
IMO, marriage should be a commitment, but when it is so easy to get out of it for reasons that are not physically abusive, how is it really a commitment?

I don't know. I have a problem with this as well. We've come so far from the days when "divorce" was a taboo word. Now it's gone too far in the other direction. People even plan divorce parties to which you're supposed to bring gifts, like at the wedding, but it's a celebration of the insanctity of vows.
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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pianojerome
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sue
Mar 7 2008, 02:24 PM
pianojerome
Mar 7 2008, 12:11 PM
To me, "for better or worse" does not mean if the person abuses me -- it means if finances are tough; it means if there are differences of opinion about how to deal with children; it means if there's a conflict over moving to a new state due to a work promotion vs. staying in the community that is already familiar; etc.  Those are things that can't necessarily be predicted, and they are things that (IMO) no matter how difficult should not break up a marriage.

to my mind, that's what it means too. And that's where it should be; in one's mind, in one's heart. If you don't feel that, you probably shouldn't be getting married. I'm not crazy about the idea of having a third party tell me I need to say it out loud with the assumption that it has more meaning then.

That vow that a third-party is telling you to say out-loud, is a reminder of what that marriage means. Of course, nowadays half of the West doesn't care one bit about that old idea of what marriage "means", so it's not really purposeful anymore, I suppose. It doesn't change how people think -- if they really mean it, then it is an affirmation; if they don't mean it, then it's just a nuisance.
Sam
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sue
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Aqua Letifer
Mar 7 2008, 12:15 PM
"You should have seen it coming" is the worst assumption to make.

No, I'd say the worst assumption is the one where you think marriage will change/fix some unpleasant behaviour in your partner.
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Aqua Letifer
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sue
Mar 7 2008, 11:27 AM
Aqua Letifer
Mar 7 2008, 12:15 PM
"You should have seen it coming" is the worst assumption to make.

No, I'd say the worst assumption is the one where you think marriage will change/fix some unpleasant behaviour in your partner.

Ahhhhhh, touche, salesman! :thumb:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Frank_W
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sue
Mar 7 2008, 01:27 PM
Aqua Letifer
Mar 7 2008, 12:15 PM
"You should have seen it coming" is the worst assumption to make.

No, I'd say the worst assumption is the one where you think marriage will change/fix some unpleasant behaviour in your partner.

Or when people get married, looking to their partner to complete something that is missing within themselves.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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sarah_blueparrot
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Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 08:28 PM
sue
Mar 7 2008, 01:27 PM
Aqua Letifer
Mar 7 2008, 12:15 PM
"You should have seen it coming" is the worst assumption to make.

No, I'd say the worst assumption is the one where you think marriage will change/fix some unpleasant behaviour in your partner.

Or when people get married, looking to their partner to complete something that is missing within themselves.

What about when you meet someone who completes you?
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
That dovetails with the rest of a societal downslide...at one point in our society, a man's word was his bond. Sure, there have always been liars, cheats, scoundrels and scalawags, but for the most part promises were kept. They had to be, or people literally would not do business with you.

There's nothing wrong, and quite a bit that is right, with pledging one's troth publicly.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Frank_W
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No such thing. No person can complete another. We are all complete within ourselves. Our own happiness can only come from within. There are people whom, when we are with, we feel pleased at the image of ourselves that they reflect back to us, and vice versa. But depending on another person to complete you, or pinning your happiness on anything outside of yourself, is like marking the side of the boat to remember where you were fishing. It's a losing proposition, every single time, and it's unfair to the other person, to expect them to complete us.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 11:31 AM
No such thing. No person can complete another. We are all complete within ourselves. Our own happiness can only come from within. There are people whom, when we are with, we feel pleased at the image of ourselves that they reflect back to us, and vice versa. But depending on another person to complete you, or pinning your happiness on anything outside of yourself, is like marking the side of the boat to remember where you were fishing. It's a losing proposition, every single time, and it's unfair to the other person, to expect them to complete us.

That's exactly right, Frank.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Frank 1
Hollywood 0


I can hear it in my mind: "You........ [pouring rain] .... complete me.... [sigh]" :rolleyes:
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
sue
Mar 7 2008, 11:27 AM
Aqua Letifer
Mar 7 2008, 12:15 PM
"You should have seen it coming" is the worst assumption to make.

No, I'd say the worst assumption is the one where you think marriage will change/fix some unpleasant behaviour in your partner.

BINGO!
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sarah_blueparrot
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Fulla-Carp
Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 08:31 PM
There are people whom, when we are with, we feel pleased at the image of ourselves that they reflect back to us, and vice versa.

This needs quoting. :)
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
sarah_blueparrot
Mar 7 2008, 11:37 AM
Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 08:31 PM
There are people whom, when we are with, we feel pleased at the image of ourselves that they reflect back to us, and vice versa.

This needs quoting. :)

Eh, I'd rather just buy a mirror.

Faster process to find a mirror, and a mirror won't make you change your drapes when you bring it into your house.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Mar 7 2008, 11:50 AM
I don't like that marriage vow.

I think certain bad things justify dumping your spouse.

Actually Kenny, with all due respect, this question is not, nor should it be, a concern for you.
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Frank_W
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Or scream that you used the guest towels to wipe your hands on, when you've come in from the garage. :lol2:

Or wake you at 2 a.m. to talk about the relationsh!t.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
sarah_blueparrot
Mar 7 2008, 11:29 AM
Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 08:28 PM
sue
Mar 7 2008, 01:27 PM
Aqua Letifer
Mar 7 2008, 12:15 PM
"You should have seen it coming" is the worst assumption to make.

No, I'd say the worst assumption is the one where you think marriage will change/fix some unpleasant behaviour in your partner.

Or when people get married, looking to their partner to complete something that is missing within themselves.

What about when you meet someone who completes you?

Hmm

This makes me think.

I don't think one person can "complete" another.

There must be another word for what you are referring to.

Perhaps the other person "completes" your sense of family, or completes your vision for the life you want for yourself or something.

Don't freak out - just my 2 cents.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 11:39 AM
Or scream that you used the guest towels to wipe your hands on, when you've come in from the garage.  :lol2:

Exactly!

Does the mirror care what you're wearing when you go out to eat? Nope! The mirror also has no preference whatsoever on when you decide to take the trash out.

Mirrors rock. ^_^

EDIT
Relationsh!t! That's a brand new one on me, I'm a fan!
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
pianojerome
Mar 7 2008, 12:27 PM
That vow that a third-party is telling you to say out-loud, is a reminder of what that marriage means. Of course, nowadays half of the West doesn't care one bit about that old idea of what marriage "means", so it's not really purposeful anymore, I suppose. It doesn't change how people think -- if they really mean it, then it is an affirmation; if they don't mean it, then it's just a nuisance.

I understand what you are saying, pj, and I'm certainly not saying there's anything wrong with saying it out loud if that makes you feel good. I'm just saying that those feelings of commitment, of respect, of love, are either deep inside you or they are not. If you base the quality of of a committed relationship on what goes on during a ceremony, you are missing what's really important, what really matters.
The ceremony, the saying of vows, is icing on the cake. And some people like more icing and decorations than others.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
If they are deep inside of you, then it's not a problem to shout it out to the world. In fact, you want to and need to. When those feelings aren't deep inside of you, well, most people can still verbalize them anyway -_- , but for some few people, they may try, but find they just can't do it. Sort of an acid test.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Aqua Letifer
Mar 7 2008, 03:38 PM
sarah_blueparrot
Mar 7 2008, 11:37 AM
Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 08:31 PM
There are people whom, when we are with, we feel pleased at the image of ourselves that they reflect back to us, and vice versa.

This needs quoting. :)

Eh, I'd rather just buy a mirror.

Faster process to find a mirror, and a mirror won't make you change your drapes when you bring it into your house.

:spit:

u r on a roll today, Aqua!
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Frank_W
Mar 7 2008, 12:31 PM
No such thing. No person can complete another. We are all complete within ourselves. Our own happiness can only come from within. There are people whom, when we are with, we feel pleased at the image of ourselves that they reflect back to us, and vice versa. But depending on another person to complete you, or pinning your happiness on anything outside of yourself, is like marking the side of the boat to remember where you were fishing. It's a losing proposition, every single time, and it's unfair to the other person, to expect them to complete us.

That depends what you mean by "complete within ourselves". Obviously we are not, or we would not need others.

But I agree with you about undue expectations of others to make us happy.

I also agree with you that often we are loving is ourselves reflected back to us from the other, and not really the other person.

I think it is also telling that those who irritate us (not that I am thinking of any particular other threads here :wink: ) do so for reasons that are entirely individual to US, not the other person. We hate most in others what we hate most in ourselves. It is just so much easier to externalize it against another person than to actually change ourself.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
sue
Mar 7 2008, 12:42 PM
If you base the quality of of a committed relationship on what goes on during a ceremony, you are missing what's really important, what really matters.

I've never known anyone to actually do anything like that. have you?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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