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Looking at America
Topic Started: Dec 31 2007, 12:54 PM (1,186 Views)
Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 06:07 PM
I'm sure there are some here who think I do an okay job of ramming things through without sock puppets.

I guess they're fun if they're poking fun at people who annoy you. I admit, I thought the Grim Reaper was pretty entertaining, but he sure was the cause for a loud outcry here.

How was The Grim Reaper entertaining in any way, shape, or form? S/he only showed to up to be insulting and nasty. I don't understand why anyone would find something like that entertaining in the least, and whomever was behind that particular sock, was a cowardly piece of sh!t. If you find that sort of thing entertaining, wow... That's just bizarre and sad. :no: :shrug:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
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Ayatollah Khamenei
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He will be more amusing when I have my way with him. Ibn' sharmoota.
Allah'u Akhbar!
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Frank_W
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Hello there, Ayatollah!! Happy New Year!! I must say, I really have missed some of the more entertaining sockies around this place. :) :wave:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
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Ayatollah Khamenei
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Be quiet, infidel.
Allah'u Akhbar!
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Frank_W
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Get a spoon and eat my ass. Half of a peace sign to you!


(Happy New Year!)
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George K
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Finally
John Hinderacker writes about this better than I ever could.

Yesterday the New York Times ran an editorial that perfectly sums up a kind of dementia, born of obsession and hatred, that has become common on the Left. Titled "Looking At America," the editorial focuses on the Bush administration's efforts to prevent terrorist attacks over the last six years. Some would look at that record and see success: no significant attacks on American soil after September 11, most of al Qaeda's leadership killed or captured, no more safe havens for terrorists, tens of millions of people liberated in Afghanistan and Iraq. But not the editors of the Times: they see only the negative, and react with "horror." It's worth taking a moment to dissect the editors' highly selective version of events since 2001.

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There are too many moments these days when we cannot recognize our country. Sunday was one of them, as we read the account in The Times of how men in some of the most trusted posts in the nation plotted to cover up the torture of prisoners by Central Intelligence Agency interrogators by destroying videotapes of their sickening behavior. It was impossible to see the founding principles of the greatest democracy in the contempt these men and their bosses showed for the Constitution, the rule of law and human decency.

One wonders whether the Times' editorialists actually read the article to which they refer, which told quite a different story. CIA officials say that they destroyed the interrogation tapes in part to protect the persons involved, some of whom "traveled regularly in and out of areas where Al Qaeda and other Islamist extremists are active." They also sought to prevent the officers involved from becoming "political scapegoats," which was, as the Times' own hysteria confirms, a valid concern.

The Times' references to "the Constitution, the rule of law and human decency" are unclear, beyond the paper's reflexive belief that whatever its opinions might be, the Constitution requires that they be followed. Nothing in the Constitution prohibits either the creation or the destruction of video tapes of interrogations of terrorists captured and held overseas, nor is there any evidence--the editors certainly offer none--that the tapes' destruction violated any law.

The editorial continues with boilerplate along the lines of, "Out of panic and ideology, President Bush squandered America’s position of moral and political leadership, swept aside international institutions and treaties, sullied America’s global image, and trampled on the constitutional pillars that have supported our democracy through the most terrifying and challenging times." This kind of talk, standard issue on the Left, leaves one wondering what in the world they are talking about. The Times says that it "cannot recognize our country" these days; I, on the other hand, cannot recognize our country in the bizarre police state fantasized by liberals. The country they describe doesn't exist. Let's get more specific:

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In the years since 9/11, we have seen American soldiers abuse, sexually humiliate, torment and murder prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq. A few have been punished, but their leaders have never been called to account.

This is the liberal vision of the United States military: all our armed forces do is "torment and murder prisoners." This obsession, shared by many on the Left, is so one-sided that it reflects, I think, a kind of mental unbalance. Yes, there have been a handful of cases in which our people have behaved badly. That handful of instances, most notably Abu Ghraib, became the most over-publicized events of the last century, due in part to the relentless efforts of the New York Times, which put Abu Ghraib on its front page on 32 consecutive days. But of the good that our military does--the liberation of two countries from the most repressive tyrannies on earth, the protection of civilians from terrorists, the extraordinary care our soldiers take to strike only military targets--the Times says nothing.

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We have seen the president, sworn to defend the Constitution, turn his powers on his own citizens, authorizing the intelligence agencies to spy on Americans, wiretapping phones and intercepting international e-mail messages without a warrant.

This is the Times' old chestnut, the NSA's international terrorist surveillance program, which it mischaracterizes, not for the first time. Once again the paper invokes the Constitution in support of its opinion, but as we have pointed out, the NSA program is legal under precedents set by at least six federal appellate courts. What is actually notable about the administration's post-September 11 intelligence gathering is how restrained it has been. Not only have the administration's surveillance programs fallen squarely within the executive's powers as defined by the federal courts, there is not a single documented case in which any citizen's rights have been abused or in which surveillance has been used for any purpose other than identifying terrorists. This is a record of which the administration can justly be proud.

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We have read accounts of how the government’s top lawyers huddled in secret after the attacks in New York and Washington and plotted ways to circumvent the Geneva Conventions — and both American and international law — to hold anyone the president chose indefinitely without charges or judicial review.

This is the Left's paranoid vision of America. One would think that squadrons of storm troopers are sweeping citizens off the street and hauling them off to jail, as under Stalin's regime, of which the Times was once so fond. In fact, the Geneva Conventions do not protect captured terrorists, and there has never been a time in American history, until the present, when enemy combatants have been treated as criminal defendants entitled to "charges" and "judicial review." During World War II, for example, it never occurred to anyone that German and Japanese prisoners were to be charged with crimes and furnished lawyers so they could appeal to the courts to set them free. And they were legitimate soldiers, not terrorists.

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Those same lawyers then twisted other laws beyond recognition to allow Mr. Bush to turn intelligence agents into torturers, to force doctors to abdicate their professional oaths and responsibilities to prepare prisoners for abuse, and then to monitor the torment to make sure it didn’t go just a bit too far and actually kill them.

What is really "twisted beyond recognition" is the Times' account of America's interrogation practices. What the paper describes is simply a fantasy. In fact, President Bush issued an executive order directing that all prisoners be treated humanely. Torture is illegal, and there is no evidence that any executive agency has authorized the use of torture. Waterboarding is the most intense interrogation method that has been authorized, with respect to as few as two high-level terrorists. While opinions differ, I think it is obvious that waterboarding is not torture. It does no physical harm, and is a technique that we have used to train pilots. The Times' reference to the role of doctors is dishonest. What doctors actually do was described in the paper's own news story:

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n the spring of 2002, ... the intelligence officers flew in a surgeon from Johns Hopkins Hospital to treat Abu Zubaydah, who had been shot three times during his capture in Pakistan.

In fact, as the Times itself reported, the CIA started videotaping interrogations in part to show how well the captured terrorists were being treated.

Quote:
 
The White House used the fear of terrorism and the sense of national unity to ram laws through Congress that gave law-enforcement agencies far more power than they truly needed to respond to the threat — and at the same time fulfilled the imperial fantasies of Vice President Dick Cheney and others determined to use the tragedy of 9/11 to arrogate as much power as they could.

The Patriot Act, a long-overdue updating of laws governing intelligence gathering and its relationship to law enforcement, passed the House by a vote of 357-66 and the Senate by 98-1. It was reauthorized in 2006 by a vote of 251-174 in the House and 89-10 in the Senate. This suggests that it is the editorial board of the New York Times, not the Bush administration, that is out of the mainstream.

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Hundreds of men, swept up on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, were thrown into a prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, so that the White House could claim they were beyond the reach of American laws. Prisoners are held there with no hope of real justice, only the chance to face a kangaroo court where evidence and the names of their accusers are kept secret, and where they are not permitted to talk about the abuse they have suffered at the hands of American jailers.

Notice how the Guantanamo prisoners were "swept up" on the battlefield, as though they were innocent bystanders. The Times repeats its fallacy of viewing captured enemies as criminal defendants. They are not criminal defendants and are not entitled to "real justice," if by that the Times means litigation in federal court. As for the "kangaroo court," i.e. military tribunals, the Times' gratuitous insult is unsupported by any fact. Speaking for myself, if accused of an offense I would far rather be tried by a military tribunal than by the Times editorial board.

Quote:
 
In other foreign lands, the C.I.A. set up secret jails where “high-value detainees” were subjected to ever more barbaric acts, including simulated drowning. These crimes were videotaped, so that “experts” could watch them, and then the videotapes were destroyed, after consultation with the White House, in the hope that Americans would never know.

Earth to the New York Times: waterboarding captured terrorists is not a "crime." And the paper's description of the role of the White House is, once again, dishonest. The editors try to create the impression that the White House encouraged the destruction of the tapes "in the hope that Americans would never know." But the paper's own reporting indicates the contrary:

Quote:
 
Mr. Muller, the agency general counsel, met to discuss the report with three senior lawyers at the White House: Alberto R. Gonzales, the White House counsel; David S. Addington, legal adviser for Vice President Dick Cheney; and John B. Bellinger III, the top lawyer at the National Security Council.
The interrogation tapes were discussed at the meeting, and one Bush administration official said that, according to notes of the discussion, Mr. Bellinger advised the C.I.A. against destroying the tapes. The positions Mr. Gonzales and Mr. Addington took are unknown. One person familiar with the discussion said that in light of concerns raised in the inspector general’s report that agency officers could be legally liable for harsh interrogations, there was a view at the time among some administration lawyers that the tapes should be preserved.



Perhaps the editorial board has joined the countless millions of Americans who don't read the Times.

After all of this fevered, paranoid prose, the editors finally get to their real point:

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We can only hope that this time, unlike 2004, American voters will have the wisdom to grant the awesome powers of the presidency to someone who has the integrity, principle and decency to use them honorably. Then when we look in the mirror as a nation, we will see, once again, the reflection of the United States of America.

In other words: Elect a Democrat in 2008, or we're going to stamp our feet and hold our breath until we turn blue!
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Kathy liked the Grim Reaper because he attacked those she would like to attack herself, namely me. Actually, she probably was the Grim Reaper. That would certainly explain a lot...

As for the article George posted, it hit the nail on the head. The American Left is no longer the loyal opposition offering different but constructive ideas of how to improve America. It is a dysfunctional hate group consumed by their desire for power and hatred for anything that hinders them from getting it. They *ARE* - America's No.1 enemy, having done more damage to this country already than all the terrorists put together.

American used to have a Communist Party, something a lot of people don't seem to know. When it became unpopular to call themselves communists, they switched their name. They became Progressives.

Now - guess where the Progressives went? Here's a hint - "I consider myself a Progressive".... (quote of Hillary Clinton in a recent speech)

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Mao
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George K
Jan 1 2008, 11:37 AM
In other words: Elect a Democrat in 2008, or we're going to stamp our feet and hold our breath until we turn blue!


Don't be so harsh to our comrades at the Times.

They are good boys who do as they are told.
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kathyk
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Frank_W
Jan 1 2008, 10:16 AM
kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 06:07 PM
I'm sure there are some here who think I do an okay job of ramming things through without sock puppets. 

I guess they're fun if they're poking fun at people who annoy you.  I admit, I thought the Grim Reaper was pretty entertaining, but he sure was the cause for a loud outcry here.

How was The Grim Reaper entertaining in any way, shape, or form? S/he only showed to up to be insulting and nasty. I don't understand why anyone would find something like that entertaining in the least, and whomever was behind that particular sock, was a cowardly piece of sh!t. If you find that sort of thing entertaining, wow... That's just bizarre and sad. :no: :shrug:

Humor is in the eyes of the beholder. When someone is poking fun at someone you dislike or whose views you disagree with, it's much more apt to strike you as funny. I know a lot of people thought it was funny when Koolaid showed up virtually every time I said boo of a political nature prior to my departure from TNCR. It wasn't very funny at all to me. Some people, no doubt, also think it's funny when people call Daniel names making fun of his sexual preference. Likewise, to me it's not humorous. When the Grim Reaper showed up, IIRC, he was targeting the views of people which I strongly disagreed with. I found that refreshingly funny, not only because I could relate to his POV, but also because certain of GR's targets are given such incredibly wide berth here in terms of their license to offend with impunity. I guess I saw it as sort of payback time. No doubt, it is small minded of me to have enjoyed that. However, if we were to be fair about it, Grim Reaper would be no less welcome here than any of the other socks who show up to ridicule individual posters.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Frank_W
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Grim Reaper wasn't poking fun. He was openly nasty and vicious, whilst hiding and striking out anonymously. It bespeaks a deplorable lack of honor and the very worst of cowardice. You aren't going to convince me any differently, Kathy. I'm afraid that we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
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George K
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Finally
Quote:
 

When the Grim Reaper showed up, IIRC, he was targeting the views of people which I strongly disagreed with. I found that refreshingly funny, not only because I could relate to his POV, but also because certain of GR's targets are given such incredibly wide berth here in terms of their license to offend with impunity.

Here are some of the fun things that this sockie has said:

Quote:
 
Why don't you log off and go find a life?
You bring your miserable baggage and throw it all over every forum you frequent.
You really think, (except for your band of waterboys), that people here, give a rat's ass about you and your perceived outcasting?
You have no respect for any members of these forums period. It's always all about you.
You bring it on yourself you rude obnoxious prick of a man.
Ax had it right. You're a whining crybaby piece of sh__


Quote:
 
You're still a hypocrite as has been pointed out for all to see here.

A pompous one at that.


Please don't hit me with your purse too!


Funny as hell. Now, when I walk into the OR people will wonder what I'm laughing at.

Oh, my sides...

I don't have a problem with people hurling insults. But, they do it by their own face and we know who they are. That's why I respect Quirt and Larry. No love lost there, but open honesty. That's their style, and it's good. It's the (here's that word again....look out) hypocrisy that gets me. And, I don't think KK is the GR.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Yep - Kathy is the Grim Reaper.

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kathyk
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George K
Jan 1 2008, 01:29 PM


I don't have a problem with people hurling insults. But, they do it by their own face and we know who they are. That's why I respect Quirt and Larry. No love lost there, but open honesty. That's their style, and it's good. It's the (here's that word again....look out) hypocrisy that gets me. And, I don't think KK is the GR.

Well, George, I think I made that point awhile back (i.e. that it's rather cowardly to hide behind a sock to hurl one's insults) and someone responded (can't remember who) that socks are fun. It's mainly to the tenor of that response that my earlier post is pointed. If you're going to tolerate socks making fun of individuals, then at least be balanced about it. Don't condone it when it's against someone you don't like and condemn it when it targets your friend. So, as far as the honesty bit, I'm with you all the way.

Where I diverge is condoning bad behavior by non-socks, but that's a whole nuther subject.

And, no, I'm not GR or any other nasty sock. I've had exactly three socks - one here, one at OCR and one at WTF - and they're entirely inane and inoffensive to anyone. Larry would be mortified if he knew who one of my socks was, though, because he's played with her. :lol:
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kathyk
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PS: Yup, those are some pretty nasty comments. But, they were delivered to someone who has been as nasty as anyone here (or on any forum I've ever participated in). And agreed - those particular comments aren't funny, but they do offer a certain sense of vindication that has been sorely lacking here when it comes to some of the behavior that has been openly condoned here. That said, I do see a general shift toward civility here. I hope it's a continuing trend.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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George K
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Finally
No argument about the person to whom one comment was directed. THe other was directed to someone else. Having said that, Larry, and Quirt for that matter, can stand up for themselves, and don't hide behind a sock to say it. THat's my point.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Larry
Jan 1 2008, 03:20 PM
[The Left] is a dysfunctional hate group consumed by their desire for power and hatred for anything that hinders them from getting it. They *ARE* - America's No.1 enemy, having done more damage to this country already than all the terrorists put together.

I love how you repeatedly juxtapose these thoughts, usually a single sentence apart, apparently without irony.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Actually, America's Number 1 enemy are termites. They've been steadily eating their way from San Diego to Houston and from Vancouver to Montreal for the last 25 years, and have been sponsored by certain international groups, whose name I am not at liberty to divulge. Suffice to say that they spell 'colour' with a 'u'. At some point, I can't tell you exactly when, but it will be soon, you will awake to find yourselves living on an island, completely disconnected from reality. Most of you probably won't notice, at least until you start taking on water.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jan 1 2008, 04:07 PM
At some point, I can't tell you exactly when, but it will be soon, you will awake to find yourselves living on an island, completely disconnected from reality. Most of you probably won't notice, at least until you start taking on water.

Holy crap. I live on an island, spell 'colour' correctly, have only a casual relationship with reality, and my roof leaks. :ph43r:
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
jon-nyc
Jan 1 2008, 05:41 PM
Larry
Jan 1 2008, 03:20 PM
[The Left] is a dysfunctional hate group consumed by their desire for power and hatred for anything that hinders them from getting it. They *ARE* - America's No.1 enemy, having done more damage to this country already than all the terrorists put together.

I love how you repeatedly juxtapose these thoughts, usually a single sentence apart, apparently without irony.

Then you apparently aren't understanding it. Here, let me simplify it for you.

1. The American Left is a dysfunctional hate group.
2. They hate America and want to control it and change it into their view of how things should be.
3. They hate anyone or anything that gets in their way of accomplishing that.
4. Because of this, the damage they have done over the last 50+ years is worse than that done by all the terrorists we've ever faced.

I realize that those who suffer this psychosis can't see it themselves, but if only one manages to open their eyes and begin the journey home to wellness it will be worth it......

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Jan 1 2008, 05:53 PM
And, no, I'm not GR or any other nasty sock.

Good enough for me. :thumb:

(Though kathy--that doesn't free you from the complaints of sneaking into my dreams at night--on those counts--you are guilty as charged! :devilgrin: )
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Buck
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Larry
Jan 1 2008, 03:57 PM

1. The American Left is a dysfunctional hate group.
2. They hate America and want to control it and change it into their view of how things should be.
3. They hate anyone or anything that gets in their way of accomplishing that.
4. Because of this, the damage they have done over the last 50+ years is worse than that done by all the terrorists we've ever faced.


I smell a commie rat!
Gee. I wish I had one of them Doomsday machines.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Buck
Jan 1 2008, 07:29 PM
I smell a commie rat!

Actually, I think the real threat, once the termites have finished their work, is Canadian beaver.

Maybe that's an avenue we should leave others to explore.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
John D'Oh
Jan 1 2008, 07:54 PM
I think the real threat, once the termites have finished their work, is Canadian beaver.

Posted Image
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
John D'Oh
Jan 1 2008, 07:54 PM
Buck
Jan 1 2008, 07:29 PM
I smell a commie rat!

Actually, I think the real threat, once the termites have finished their work, is Canadian beaver.

Maybe that's an avenue we should leave others to explore.

I read it as, "Actually, the real treat, is the Canadian beaver." A sentiment I wholly endorse! :sombrero:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I absolutely love Canadian beaver....

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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