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Looking at America
Topic Started: Dec 31 2007, 12:54 PM (1,182 Views)
Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
December 31, 2007
Editorial NY Times

Looking at America


There are too many moments these days when we cannot recognize our country. Sunday was one of them, as we read the account in The Times of how men in some of the most trusted posts in the nation plotted to cover up the torture of prisoners by Central Intelligence Agency interrogators by destroying videotapes of their sickening behavior. It was impossible to see the founding principles of the greatest democracy in the contempt these men and their bosses showed for the Constitution, the rule of law and human decency.

It was not the first time in recent years we’ve felt this horror, this sorrowful sense of estrangement, not nearly. This sort of lawless behavior has become standard practice since Sept. 11, 2001.

The country and much of the world was rightly and profoundly frightened by the single-minded hatred and ingenuity displayed by this new enemy. But there is no excuse for how President Bush and his advisers panicked — how they forgot that it is their responsibility to protect American lives and American ideals, that there really is no safety for Americans or their country when those ideals are sacrificed.

Out of panic and ideology, President Bush squandered America’s position of moral and political leadership, swept aside international institutions and treaties, sullied America’s global image, and trampled on the constitutional pillars that have supported our democracy through the most terrifying and challenging times. These policies have fed the world’s anger and alienation and have not made any of us safer.

In the years since 9/11, we have seen American soldiers abuse, sexually humiliate, torment and murder prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq. A few have been punished, but their leaders have never been called to account. We have seen mercenaries gun down Iraqi civilians with no fear of prosecution. We have seen the president, sworn to defend the Constitution, turn his powers on his own citizens, authorizing the intelligence agencies to spy on Americans, wiretapping phones and intercepting international e-mail messages without a warrant.

We have read accounts of how the government’s top lawyers huddled in secret after the attacks in New York and Washington and plotted ways to circumvent the Geneva Conventions — and both American and international law — to hold anyone the president chose indefinitely without charges or judicial review.

Those same lawyers then twisted other laws beyond recognition to allow Mr. Bush to turn intelligence agents into torturers, to force doctors to abdicate their professional oaths and responsibilities to prepare prisoners for abuse, and then to monitor the torment to make sure it didn’t go just a bit too far and actually kill them.

The White House used the fear of terrorism and the sense of national unity to ram laws through Congress that gave law-enforcement agencies far more power than they truly needed to respond to the threat — and at the same time fulfilled the imperial fantasies of Vice President Dick Cheney and others determined to use the tragedy of 9/11 to arrogate as much power as they could.

Hundreds of men, swept up on the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, were thrown into a prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, so that the White House could claim they were beyond the reach of American laws. Prisoners are held there with no hope of real justice, only the chance to face a kangaroo court where evidence and the names of their accusers are kept secret, and where they are not permitted to talk about the abuse they have suffered at the hands of American jailers.

In other foreign lands, the C.I.A. set up secret jails where “high-value detainees” were subjected to ever more barbaric acts, including simulated drowning. These crimes were videotaped, so that “experts” could watch them, and then the videotapes were destroyed, after consultation with the White House, in the hope that Americans would never know.

The C.I.A. contracted out its inhumanity to nations with no respect for life or law, sending prisoners — some of them innocents kidnapped on street corners and in airports — to be tortured into making false confessions, or until it was clear they had nothing to say and so were let go without any apology or hope of redress.

These are not the only shocking abuses of President Bush’s two terms in office, made in the name of fighting terrorism. There is much more — so much that the next president will have a full agenda simply discovering all the wrongs that have been done and then righting them.

We can only hope that this time, unlike 2004, American voters will have the wisdom to grant the awesome powers of the presidency to someone who has the integrity, principle and decency to use them honorably. Then when we look in the mirror as a nation, we will see, once again, the reflection of the United States of America.

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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
What a load of rubbish. All we have to do to see America again is kick ideologically constipated morons like this out of the country.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Copper
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Jack Frost
Dec 31 2007, 03:54 PM
December 31, 2007
Editorial NY Times

Looking at America


The White House used the fear of terrorism and the sense of national unity to ram laws through Congress


Sure those laws were "rammed".

There was just about nothing the Congress could do about them.

Poor old Congress.

Let's remember that congress includes Mrs. Clinton, Mr. McCain, Mr. Obama, Mr. Paul and other people who were just too weak and had to do whatever that mean old White House told them to do.

Maybe when Mrs. Clinton gets elected she'll be nice to Congress and let them make some laws on their own unlike those mean old people in the White House now.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
When Hillary Clinton is president, everything will be better.

Fields full of happy, fluffy bunnies bounding through the dandelions, and we can all have chocolate cake for breakfast, and we won't have to brush our teeth or worry about anything ever again.

Oh, thank Heavens for the Democrats. They will save us all from the evil clutches of Gargamel Bush and Darth Cheney!! Praise Jah & Jeebus and Halle-friggin-lujah!!!

:party: :clap:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I read an article by another one of these idiots the other day whose point was that there was a positive aspect to "global warming", because most of the evil old conservatives lived in the South, and when the sea levels rose it would flood them all out and then the "real Americans" wouldn't have to deal with them any more.......

These people are a bigger enemy of this country than Al Qaeda ever dreamed of being.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
I like your signature line, Jack :lol:

"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Well, I could understand Democrats feeling chagrined that Bush/Cheney won a second term. Imagine their outrage when their own party is running the whole show, and they end up with just more of the same, (and possibly worse), including a roll-back of tax cuts that happened under the Republicans, higher taxes to fund a Federal Health Care program, and increasingly lax policies on things like illegal immigration.

Republican or Democrat: "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. The beatings will continue until morale improves."

Politics as usual, and 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue continues to be the best little whorehouse in D.C.

:rolleyes2: :no:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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kathyk
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It's not politics as usual. It's recognizing that our country is truly at a low point. It's being able to recognize that it's not just a bunch of disenfranchised Democrats bellyaching because they're not in power. All you have to do is to listen to the throngs of disillusioned Republicans and independents who are non-partisan enough to acknowledge the disaster that this administration has wrought. When Clinton did things that I didn't like, I spoke out against it. I really can't understand why some of you seem incapable of doing that when it comes to Bush. :no: Why defend the indefensible?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Copper
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kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 04:55 PM

I really can't understand why some of you seem incapable of doing that when it comes to Bush. :no: Why defend the indefensible?


OK, who was defending Mr. Bush?

Come on, own up to it.

I was commenting on the knucklehed article at the top of this post.

The idea that the failures of Congress were "rammed through" by the Whitehouse is really silly.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I think we can agree that the silliness in that article runs even deeper than that.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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kathyk
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You might disagree with the article, but it is hardly silly. What is silly are your one-liners.

Copper, the article is about the Bush administration. And, yes, he has rammed things through Congress with his knee jerk use of his veto power.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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JBryan
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Yes, I disagree with the article and, no, it is silly. I don't even know where to begin in unravelling its profound and serial silliness.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 04:38 PM
You might disagree with the article, but it is hardly silly. What is silly are your one-liners.

Copper, the article is about the Bush administration. And, yes, he has rammed things through Congress with his knee jerk use of his veto power.

You must be joking. Bush never even used the veto until last year when the Congress came under Democrat control. What has he rammed through with the "knee jerk use of his veto power"?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 03:38 PM
And, yes, he has rammed things through Congress with his knee jerk use of his veto power.

Wanna diagram that one for us? :blink:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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HRC
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:smile:
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kathyk
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My bad - I should have said killed things - as killed bills - rather than rammed them through, insofar as his veto power.

As for ramming, for the first few years after 9-11, he consistently played the terror card card, and quite effectively at that, to ram tons of over-reacting legislation through, not the least of which was the authority to invade Iraq.

I can't decide what is more lowly. People who have to use sock puppets to hide behind to make their derrogatory remarks or people who openly make their nasty remarks. I think the former - they're not only mean, but they're also cowardly.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
And Congress was helpless against this "terror card"?

If what he was doing was so manifestly a bad idea it should have not been too difficult for Congress to shake off this "terror card" Jedi mind trick.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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kathyk
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In a way they were helpless. This is where it was politics as usual. You had a constituency that was over 70% in favor of the invasion and who had been bamboozled into believing the Saddam/9-11 connection. You had post 9-11 Bush approval ratings that were even higher. You had a constituency that needed an invasion - any invasion - to believe that it was safe from another terrorist attack.

I personally lost all respect for the ones who should have known better, and particularly for Hillary who continues to defend her votes. At least Edwards admits he was wrong.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Copper
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kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 05:54 PM
My bad - I should have said killed things - as killed bills - rather than rammed them through, insofar as his veto power.

As for ramming, for the first few years after 9-11, he consistently played the terror card card, and quite effectively at that, to ram tons of over-reacting legislation through, not the least of which was the authority to invade Iraq.

I can't decide what is more lowly. People who have to use sock puppets to hide behind to make their derrogatory remarks or people who openly make their nasty remarks. I think the former - they're not only mean, but they're also cowardly.


OK, he used his veto power. Well that's not ramming, that's his responsibility it comes with the job.

With or without presidential veto power the people in Congress have taken an oath to do their job. If they don't you can't really blame Mr. Bush.

Sock puppets can really be fun. Instead of worrying about other people's socks you should get some.

Why not create a sock with Mr. Bush? Then you could ram things through the forum.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kathyk
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I'm sure there are some here who think I do an okay job of ramming things through without sock puppets.

I guess they're fun if they're poking fun at people who annoy you. I admit, I thought the Grim Reaper was pretty entertaining, but he sure was the cause for a loud outcry here.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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CTPianotech
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Fulla-Carp
who said anything about Grim Reaper--you weren't even around when he/she was..right?

Quote:
 
In a way they were helpless. This is where it was politics as usual. You had a constituency that was over 70% in favor of the invasion and who had been bamboozled into believing the Saddam/9-11 connection.


At least according to how most polls are presented---the majority of people seem to support a withdrawl from Iraq. In not doing so, isn't President Bush doing exactly what the Congress was 'helpless' against? (going against the apparent 'majority' opinion of the people?)

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 04:07 PM
I'm sure there are some here who think I do an okay job of ramming things through without sock puppets.

In fact, Jack was just mentioning the other day.... :leaving:

(j/k)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
I knew you all'd like that editotial.

Happy New Year everyone!

jf

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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 06:01 PM
In a way they were helpless. This is where it was politics as usual. You had a constituency that was over 70% in favor of the invasion and who had been bamboozled into believing the Saddam/9-11 connection. You had post 9-11 Bush approval ratings that were even higher. You had a constituency that needed an invasion - any invasion - to believe that it was safe from another terrorist attack.

I personally lost all respect for the ones who should have known better, and particularly for Hillary who continues to defend her votes. At least Edwards admits he was wrong.

Kathy, you simply amaze me. You are so utterly clueless that it's comical.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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George K
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Finally
kathyk
Dec 31 2007, 06:07 PM
I guess they're fun if they're poking fun at people who annoy you. I admit, I thought the Grim Reaper was pretty entertaining, but he sure was the cause for a loud outcry here.

So, you approve of the sockpuppets as long as they see things the same way that you do, right? Those socks are not cowardly in any way. It's those nasty socks that disagree with you that are a problem.

I see.
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