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GoreBulbs(tm); ...congress' act
Topic Started: Dec 30 2007, 09:28 PM (1,137 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
One further point. You're right about hydroelectric, or even wind or solar. But since we can't satisfy all of our power needs from those sources at this time, the incremental power used by a lightbulb generates some amount of mercury pollution. Feel free to adjust the numbers for the percentage of power generated in this country by non-coal-fired plants. The math is still the math.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 11:36 AM
No, the bulb doesn't have a mercury footprint.

OK, on this we agree. That was my whole point.

Quote:
 
But using it does.  Are we supposed to consider the bulb separate and apart from its use? 

Yes we are, if someone is going to say "don't think that incandescent bulbs are mercury free." If I run the incandescent from hydroelectric, or solar, or my own personal nuclear reactor (assuming these are mercury free) then the bulb is mercury free.

I have no problem with trying to find less environmentally impacting materials, distribution, or systems, or considering life cycle (raw material, manufacturing, distribution, use, discard/recycling) in determining what is the optimal solution. There is a considerable amount of "greenwashing" that goes on in my industry with manufacturers claiming to be environmentally friendly with building materials recycled from waste that to manufacture is actually quite bad for the environment.

A rigorous analysis would separate the various phases, and optimize each to optimize the aggregate. The author of that statement about how incandescents are not mercury free is not doing that.

Quote:
 

Your position is as absurd as saying that grapes from Chile have no carbon footprint, ignoring the fact that you can't wiggle your nose and say "poof!" and have them appear in a bowl on your counter.  The grapes are transported.  Transportation requires energy.  The use of energy to move grapes generates carbon dioxide.  The Chilean grape itself may not have a carbon footprint, but you can't eat that grape without generating a fair amount of carbon dioxide.  And eating the grape in the United States is the whole point, isn't it?  You aren't considering the grape in situ in Chile, are you? 


Since I have never heard anyone make that argument, I would agree with you that is an absurd argument. It however has nothing to do with my original point that a mercury producing power source does not make a mercury free incandescent have a mercury footprint, which you already acknowledged.

I'll give you the last word, because I think we've both made our points.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 11:39 AM
One further point. You're right about hydroelectric, or even wind or solar. But since we can't satisfy all of our power needs from those sources at this time, the incremental power used by a lightbulb generates some amount of mercury pollution. Feel free to adjust the numbers for the percentage of power generated in this country by non-coal-fired plants. The math is still the math.

Sorry, I gave you the last word, but then saw this.

The problem with that logic is immediately evinced by considering that your refrigerator, computer, radio, telephone, and every other electrical appliance in your house would have the same relative mercury footprint.

So why are we talking about the dangers of an incandescent bulb when your refrigerator and air conditioner are massive power hogs compared to light bulbs, and thus have exponentially greater mercury footprints?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2007, 02:02 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 11:39 AM
One further point.  You're right about hydroelectric, or even wind or solar.  But since we can't satisfy all of our power needs from those sources at this time, the incremental power used by a lightbulb generates some amount of mercury pollution.  Feel free to adjust the numbers for the percentage of power generated in this country by non-coal-fired plants.  The math is still the math.

Sorry, I gave you the last word, but then saw this.

The problem with that logic is immediately evinced by considering that your refrigerator, computer, radio, telephone, and every other electrical appliance in your house would have the same relative mercury footprint.

So why are we talking about the dangers of an incandescent bulb when your refrigerator and air conditioner are massive power hogs compared to light bulbs, and thus have exponentially greater mercury footprints?

Because there's a way to reduce the electric consumption of a lightbulb substantially, and there isn't a comparable way to reduce the electric consumption of your refrigerator or your air conditioner.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 01:29 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2007, 02:02 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 11:39 AM
One further point.  You're right about hydroelectric, or even wind or solar.  But since we can't satisfy all of our power needs from those sources at this time, the incremental power used by a lightbulb generates some amount of mercury pollution.  Feel free to adjust the numbers for the percentage of power generated in this country by non-coal-fired plants.  The math is still the math.

Sorry, I gave you the last word, but then saw this.

The problem with that logic is immediately evinced by considering that your refrigerator, computer, radio, telephone, and every other electrical appliance in your house would have the same relative mercury footprint.

So why are we talking about the dangers of an incandescent bulb when your refrigerator and air conditioner are massive power hogs compared to light bulbs, and thus have exponentially greater mercury footprints?

Because there's a way to reduce the electric consumption of a lightbulb substantially, and there isn't a comparable way to reduce the electric consumption of your refrigerator or your air conditioner.

I agree with your point about energy reduction, but don't see how it relates to mercury footprints, which was the original point. I am sure comparative technology will reduce the loads on these other items (better SEER ratings will get cheaper) (sorry, I guess I'm not very good at this business of yielding the last word :whome:)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I doubt that, in a climate where we are trying to reduce CO2 emissions, mercury emissions are going to be any less intolerable. That is why I think the Popular Mechanic's line of reasoning is, frankly, a cop-out. We can increase mercury in our landfills because this will decrease mercury emissions from coal fired plants ignoring the fact that 1) a decreasing percentage of our electricity is coming from coal and 2) we will no doubt be decreasing mercury emissions from coal fired plants for its own sake. We are still left with a net increase of mercury in our landfills or wherever these things end up.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Allowing that I live in an area where the cost of electricity is high, the recent introduction of lamps that have an acceptable color index, last 10X+ as long as incandescents and operate on 75% less electricity makes changing over to compact fluorescent lamps a no-brainer at my house.

When they burn out, I will recycle them - something we have been doing with standard fluorescents out here for years. The recyclers will remove the mercury and sell it to be used in new CF lamps.

Win-win.

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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
I've been making killer bongs out of mine... The mercury really lends a sweetish aftertaste to the smoke.... :smokin:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I have never seen or heard of a flourescent tube recycling center hereabouts. I am sure they are as common as mud in granola land.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't know how much Massachusetts' electricity tariff differs from California's, but a local hardware store was blowing out a ton of CF "bulbs" at some rediculously low prices earlier this year. So I pretty much swapped out all traditional light bulbs (except the flood lights, those on dimmers, and the 3-way ones). Now I have a pretty sizeable inventory of unused / still-good traditional light bulbs that I don't know what to do with... may be swap them back for the winter season? :whome:
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
JBryan
Dec 31 2007, 02:06 PM
I have never seen or heard of a flourescent tube recycling center hereabouts. I am sure they are as common as mud in granola land.

They used to be separate centers but now you can take them to the recycling area at the local trash hauling yard along with CRTs, TVs, paint, oil and whatnot. They sort it all out there.

About the only things you can't take there are biohazards, PCBs (not sure why - they're pretty benign in the grand scheme of things) and radioactive waste.

As goes California, typically so goes the nation. Look for recycling centers in your area soon. I like them - very convenient, and free to the public.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Axtremus
Dec 31 2007, 02:09 PM
I don't know how much Massachusetts' electricity tariff differs from California's, but a local hardware store was blowing out a ton of CF "bulbs" at some rediculously low prices earlier this year. So I pretty much swapped out all traditional light bulbs (except the flood lights, those on dimmers, and the 3-way ones). Now I have a pretty sizeable inventory of unused / still-good traditional light bulbs that I don't know what to do with... may be swap them back for the winter season? :whome:

I use the old ones in the light strings we put up for temp lighting on construction sites. They generally get broken long before they burn out. Other than that, just pitch 'em. They're on the way out and the price reflects that - I can buy them for less than 25 cents each these days.

CF floods are now available - I like 'em. 3 ways are also available now but I haven't tried them.
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George K
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Finally
Axtremus
Dec 31 2007, 04:09 PM
I don't know what to do with... may be swap them back for the winter season? :whome:

Your house will be warmer if you swap them back in! :thumb:
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- Mik, 6/14/08


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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Dec 31 2007, 02:09 PM
I don't know how much Massachusetts' electricity tariff differs from California's, but a local hardware store was blowing out a ton of CF "bulbs" at some rediculously low prices earlier this year. So I pretty much swapped out all traditional light bulbs (except the flood lights, those on dimmers, and the 3-way ones). Now I have a pretty sizeable inventory of unused / still-good traditional light bulbs that I don't know what to do with... may be swap them back for the winter season? :whome:

Stock pile them, Ax -- they'll be worth a lot of money like the contraband 3 gallon toilet tanks.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2007, 03:34 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 01:29 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 31 2007, 02:02 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 11:39 AM
One further point.  You're right about hydroelectric, or even wind or solar.  But since we can't satisfy all of our power needs from those sources at this time, the incremental power used by a lightbulb generates some amount of mercury pollution.  Feel free to adjust the numbers for the percentage of power generated in this country by non-coal-fired plants.  The math is still the math.

Sorry, I gave you the last word, but then saw this.

The problem with that logic is immediately evinced by considering that your refrigerator, computer, radio, telephone, and every other electrical appliance in your house would have the same relative mercury footprint.

So why are we talking about the dangers of an incandescent bulb when your refrigerator and air conditioner are massive power hogs compared to light bulbs, and thus have exponentially greater mercury footprints?

Because there's a way to reduce the electric consumption of a lightbulb substantially, and there isn't a comparable way to reduce the electric consumption of your refrigerator or your air conditioner.

I agree with your point about energy reduction, but don't see how it relates to mercury footprints, which was the original point. I am sure comparative technology will reduce the loads on these other items (better SEER ratings will get cheaper) (sorry, I guess I'm not very good at this business of yielding the last word :whome:)

Once again ... because coal-fired plants generate mercury pollution. Use of electricity generates mercury pollution, by causing coal-fired plants to run more. Lightbulbs use electricity.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
What about dimmer lights? Are they developing a solution there?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Steve Miller
Dec 31 2007, 03:59 PM
Allowing that I live in an area where the cost of electricity is high, the recent introduction of lamps that have an acceptable color index, last 10X+ as long as incandescents and operate on 75% less electricity makes changing over to compact fluorescent lamps a no-brainer at my house.

When they burn out, I will recycle them - something we have been doing with standard fluorescents out here for years. The recyclers will remove the mercury and sell it to be used in new CF lamps.

Win-win.

Changing to a more efficient lighting because you are free to do so and it makes good sense is one thing. Having government think it can tell me I *have* to do it is quite another.

And as for the free recycling centers - I know I'm just a poor old country boy from the South and we're not as sophisticated 'round here as you trend setting Californians - but around these parts they are called service centers, are staffed from 8AM til 5PM, free, and we've had them for at least 20 years now. We understand however, that there's no one sitting around sucking the teeny little semi-drop of mercury out of the bulbs before they toss them into the container.....

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Steve Miller
Dec 31 2007, 12:08 PM
RosemaryTwo
Dec 31 2007, 07:57 AM
I agree, Quirt, my complaint is about the quality of light.  My house feels orange under the flourescent lights, and it depresses me.  Seriously.

I am relying on American ingenuity to invent a flourescent bulb that emits quality light; looks attractive in exposed outlets, and can be dimmed.

I assume all of this can/will happen, but I am not happy about the current flourescent choices that I see for sale.

Try the new line of CF lamps at Home Depot. Brand name is N:vision. About $2 each in four packs. Get the ones marked "soft white" in the green package. I've changed over pretty much my entire house.

The color is a dead ringer for a regular soft white incandescent bulb and they come in a wide enough range of sizes that you should be able to fit just about any fixture.

No dimmable ones available yet and they still don't work with home automation systems but they do work with motion sensors.

Hi Steve! Happy New Year!
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Why in the name of Judas Priest hasn't Algore suggested banning Christmas lights altogether? Not only would we save vast quantities of killer whales and penguins for the Japs to experiment with and make into soap and stuff, we'd also GET RID OF THE FREAKING CHRISTMAS LIGHTS!

I don't care if the world burns and dies, just don't make me look at any more of those pulsing iridescent icicle lights, and I DON'T WANT TO PUT THEM UP NEXT YEAR!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Finally, an electric lighting philosophy I can get four square behind.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Dec 31 2007, 06:23 PM
Steve Miller,Dec 31 2007
03:59 PM
We understand however, that there's no one sitting around sucking the teeny little semi-drop of mercury out of the bulbs before they toss them into the container.....

Maybe they should start. :D
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
DivaDeb
Dec 31 2007, 06:26 PM
Hi Steve! Happy New Year!

Hi Deb!

Happy New Year to you too! :thumb:
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Jeffrey
Dec 31 2007, 05:51 PM
What about dimmer lights? Are they developing a solution there?

GE offers a line of dimmable CF lamps but I haven't tried them.
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

I wonder if you can buy CFL's with the ROHS stamp on them. If not what do Europeans do?

Down here the re-cycling centers are not free, or easy to find. Which is why
everyone still throws most of this stuff (including batteries) into the regular trash.

Did you ever read the stories of the poor Chinese people who receive much of the re-cycle material?




China's e-waste nightmare worsening By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN, Associated Press Writer


The air smells acrid from the squat gas burners that sit outside homes, melting wires to recover copper and cooking computer motherboards to release gold. Migrant workers in filthy clothes smash picture tubes by hand to recover glass and electronic parts, releasing as much as 6.5 pounds of lead dust.

For five years, environmentalists and the media have highlighted the danger to Chinese workers who dismantle much of the world's junked electronics. Yet a visit to this southeastern Chinese town regarded as the heartland of "e-waste" disposal shows little has improved. In fact, the problem is growing worse because of China's own contribution.

China now produces more than 1 million tons of e-waste each year, said Jamie Choi, a toxics campaigner with Greenpeace China in Beijing. That adds up to roughly 5 million television sets, 4 million fridges, 5 million washing machines, 10 million mobile phones and 5 million personal computers, according to Choi.

"Most e-waste in China comes from overseas, but the amount of domestic e-waste is on the rise," he said.

This ugly business is driven by pure economics. For the West, where safety rules drive up the cost of disposal, it's as much as 10 times cheaper to export the waste to developing countries. In China, poor migrants from the countryside willingly endure the health risks to earn a few yuan, exploited by profit-hungry entrepreneurs.

International agreements and European regulations have made a dent in the export of old electronics to China, but loopholes — and sometimes bribes — allow many to skirt the requirements. And only a sliver of the electronics sold get returned to manufacturers such as Dell and Hewlett Packard for safe recycling.

Upwards of 90 percent ends up in dumps that observe no environmental standards, where shredders, open fires, acid baths and broilers are used to recover gold, silver, copper and other valuable metals while spewing toxic fumes and runoff into the nation's skies and rivers.

Accurate figures about the shady and unregulated trade are hard to come by. However, experts agree that it is overwhelmingly a problem of the developing world. They estimate about 70 percent of the 20-50 million tons of electronic waste produced globally each year is dumped in China, with most of the rest going to India and poor African nations.

According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, it is ten times cheaper to export e-waste than to dispose of it at home.

Imports slip into China despite a Chinese ban and Beijing's ratification of the Basel Convention, an international agreement that outlaws the trade. Industry monitor Ted Smith said one U.S. exporter told him all that was needed to get shipments past Chinese customs officials was a crisp $100 bill taped to the inside of each container.

"The central government is well aware of the problems but has been unable or unwilling to really address it," said Smith, senior strategist with the California-based Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition, which focuses on the electronics industry.

The European Union bans such exports, but Smith and others say smuggling is rife, largely due to the lack of measures to punish rule breakers. China, meanwhile, allows the import of plastic waste and scrap metal, which many recyclers use as an excuse to send old electronics there.

And though U.S. states increasingly require that electronics be sent to collection and recycling centers, even from those centers, American firms can send the e-waste abroad legally because Congress hasn't ratified the Basel Convention.

The results are visible on the streets of Guiyu, where the e-waste industry employs an estimated 150,000 people. Shipping containers of computer parts, old video games, computer screens, cell phones and electronics of all kinds, from ancient to nearly new, are dumped onto the streets and sorted for dismantling and melting.

Valuable metals such as copper, gold, and silver are removed through melting and acid baths, while steel is torn out for scrap and plastic is ground into pellets for other use.

This is big business for those who control the trade. Luxury sedans are parked in front of elaborate mansions in downtown Guiyu, adorned with fancy names such as "Hall of Southernly Peace."

Many of those who do the dirty work are migrants from poorer parts of China, too desperate or uninformed to care about the health risks.

In the town of Nanyang, a few minutes drive from Guiyu, a middle-aged couple from the inland province of Hunan sorts wiring in a mud-floored shack. Such work, including melting down motherboards, earns them about $100 per month, said the husband, who answered reluctantly and wouldn't give his name.

Many houses double as smelter and home. Gas burners shaped like blacksmith's forges squat beside the front doors, their flues rising several stories to try to dissipate the toxic smoke.

Nonetheless, a visitor soon develops a throbbing headache and metallic taste in the mouth. The groundwater has long been too polluted for human consumption. The amount of lead in the river sediment is double European safety levels, according to the Basel Action Network, an environmental group.

Yet, aside from trucking in drinking water, the health risks seem largely ignored. Fish are still raised in local ponds, and piles of ash and plastic waste sit beside rice paddies and dikes holding in the area's main Lianjiang river.

Chemicals, including mercury, fluorine, barium, chromium, and cobalt, that either leach from the waste or are used in processing, are blamed for skin rashes and respiratory problems. Contamination can take decades to dissipate, experts say, and long-term health effects can include kidney and nervous system damage, weakening of the immune system and cancer.


Pollution
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
We should really upgrade a lot less often.
Get off the consumerism bad habits.
But what makes concumption-based economic growth the holy grail anyway?
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