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| GoreBulbs(tm); ...congress' act | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 30 2007, 09:28 PM (1,138 Views) | |
| Aqua Letifer | Dec 31 2007, 07:23 AM Post #26 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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The only thing "clear" about that disgrace is that they don't give any sh!t at all. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| JBryan | Dec 31 2007, 07:30 AM Post #27 |
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I am the grey one
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Yes, but the link I posted was to a rule promulgated by the EPA in 2005 or did you even read it. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| JBryan | Dec 31 2007, 07:34 AM Post #28 |
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I am the grey one
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Of course, all this is really a diversion from the simple fact that an assumption that mercury emissions will remain constant offsetting the mercury released by CFLs is faulty. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Dec 31 2007, 07:38 AM Post #29 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Well, I've read it a couple times previous, so I'm familiar with the content. And I do not at all agree on their current approach to emissions reduction. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 07:43 AM Post #30 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Let's see ... Popular Mechanics' methodology ... JB's criticism ... Popular Mechanics' methodology ... JB's criticism ... Which one would you tend toward? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Larry | Dec 31 2007, 07:47 AM Post #31 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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An even larger problem than the potential harm from the mercury is a government sticking its nose further and further into our lives. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| JBryan | Dec 31 2007, 07:48 AM Post #32 |
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I am the grey one
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WHAT ARE YOUR SPECIFIC CRITICISMS. Is it your contention that mercury emissions from coal-fired plants will not be reduced under this rule or at all in the future. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| JBryan | Dec 31 2007, 07:51 AM Post #33 |
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I am the grey one
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So, your contention is that coal-fired power will remain at a constant percentage of the total and that future mercury emissions from these plants will remain constant as is the basis of Popular Mechanic's assumption of offsetting mercury from CFLs. Sorry, I do not find your argument from authority compelling. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 07:55 AM Post #34 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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No, you're a smart guy. But the guys at Popular Mechanics are pretty smart too, and there are a lot more of them than the one of you. Since it's outside my area of expertise, unless I want to dig into the methodology they used myself, I have to choose who to trust. Besides, although you have expressed a question about their methodology, you haven't indicated that you've even read the Popular Mechanics article, let alone looked at their methodology to see if your concern was addressed. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Dec 31 2007, 08:12 AM Post #35 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Well for starters, I don't necessarily disagree with your problem with the current projections. New technologies are made every day for coal plants to reduce their mercury emissions, so I agree, that is important to consider. But, you said that EPA is working right now to drastically reduce mercury emissions. Well, they are doing something, yes, but my specific criticism is this: I do not think a cap and trade program is the best way to deal with emissions from coal fired power plants. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 31 2007, 08:50 AM Post #36 |
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Maybe I should start a separate thread with my original question.
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 08:57 AM Post #37 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Alternatively, you could read the first ten posts in the thread. The answer is in approximately the ninth one.
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| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 31 2007, 09:01 AM Post #38 |
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Ha thanks - I agree that they can do it but I definitely don't think they should. If they start lumping everything together in the name of energy conservation, they could/should theoretically start taxing people who use X-amount of electricity in their house. This is just too much of a big government intrusion than I prefer. |
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| Steve Miller | Dec 31 2007, 09:08 AM Post #39 |
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Bull-Carp
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Try the new line of CF lamps at Home Depot. Brand name is N:vision. About $2 each in four packs. Get the ones marked "soft white" in the green package. I've changed over pretty much my entire house. The color is a dead ringer for a regular soft white incandescent bulb and they come in a wide enough range of sizes that you should be able to fit just about any fixture. No dimmable ones available yet and they still don't work with home automation systems but they do work with motion sensors. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 09:11 AM Post #40 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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For my view, this sense makes perhaps. Grammar not being as important, since. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 09:12 AM Post #41 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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As always, Steve Miller is the man to ask. Thanks Steve! |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Dec 31 2007, 09:19 AM Post #42 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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:lol: The avatar of yours should be made this, Quirt. ![]() And c'mon man, you're a lawyer. According to testimony, any legal document, judicial summons or other documentation of legal nature does not flow well, is not interesting and is not, in the opinion of relevant witnesses, easy to read by any means. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 31 2007, 09:20 AM Post #43 |
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MAMIL
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Whereas all lawyers do is stick 'whereas' at the beginning of everything they say. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 09:23 AM Post #44 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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You have a fair point. 89th's contortions of the English language do make for interesting reading and a fair amount of amusement. Excuse me. Whereas, you have a fair point. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 31 2007, 09:30 AM Post #45 |
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MAMIL
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I believe that the party of the first part and the party of the second part are going for a party at the party of the third part's, heretofore known as the party party party. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 31 2007, 09:47 AM Post #46 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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What a strange argument. That does not mean that the incandescent bulb is not mercury free, it means that coal generated electricity is not mercury free. Reaching like that weakens credibility. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 31 2007, 09:54 AM Post #47 |
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MAMIL
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It's similar to an argument that has been used against electric cars - that the pollution is still high, but is concentrated in the area of the power station rather than locally to the vehicle itself, hence making people feel better about themselves than they deserve to. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 09:58 AM Post #48 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I'm sure you're capable of seeing cause and effect. Over the course of a normal bulb's lifetime, it will use X' amount of electricity. The generation of X' amount of electricity will result in X mercury pollution. Over the course of the same amount of time, a CFL will use Y' amount of electricity, resulting in Y mercury pollution. In addition, over that time, a CFL has Z'% chance of failing, generating an expected amount of mercury pollution equal to Z. Y plus Z is either greater than, less than or equal to X. You can adjust X, if need be, to take into account the expected value of the reduction in mercury pollution to be generated by power plants in the future (as long as you adjust Z accordingly as well). But there's nothing illogical about calculating both direct and indirect mercury pollution caused by each source of lighting. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 31 2007, 10:18 AM Post #49 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It is still a strange argument since if you run an incandescent off of hydroelectric power, then the bulb is mercury free. So the bulb is mercury free. Full stop. It is as strange an argument as saying if you ran a CFL off of a car generator than the CFL has a massive carbon footprint. No, it would not. The power source does, not the bulb. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 31 2007, 10:36 AM Post #50 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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No, the bulb doesn't have a mercury footprint. But using it does. Are we supposed to consider the bulb separate and apart from its use? If the only way to get the bulb is to drive 500 miles each way in order to pick it up (no delivery options), then of course it's relevant to consider the car emissions part of the carbon footprint of using the bulb. Your position is as absurd as saying that grapes from Chile have no carbon footprint, ignoring the fact that you can't wiggle your nose and say "poof!" and have them appear in a bowl on your counter. The grapes are transported. Transportation requires energy. The use of energy to move grapes generates carbon dioxide. The Chilean grape itself may not have a carbon footprint, but you can't eat that grape without generating a fair amount of carbon dioxide. And eating the grape in the United States is the whole point, isn't it? You aren't considering the grape in situ in Chile, are you? If using a thing (in this case, a lightbulb) requires the use of something else ... and, as far as I know, absent solar panels on the roof, no one has yet figured out a use for a lightbulb that doesn't require electricity ... then of course the pollution generated by the necessary "something else" is relevant to considering how much pollution use of the thing itself generates. What do you think the whole point of "eating what's grown locally" is all about, anyway? It was a cover story in Newsweek earlier this year. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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